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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [proposal] Better look and feel
Date Thu, 06 Jan 2000 18:20:41 GMT
Mike Pogue wrote:
> 
> > > So, we both already agree that we SHOULD converge.  Now, let's talk
> > > about WHEN to converge.  What should be the criteria for converging?
> > > I'd personally like to see more than just our couple of Apache
> > > subprojects invent some styles (grammars), before we require everybody
> > > to use the same grammar.  Let's get some customer feedback first, then
> > > converge.
> >
> > Great points, really, show how much I have to learn about project
> > management. I think I have to apologize for my shortsightness.
> >
> 
> No apology necessary...  If you found my comments useful, great!  I
> certainly value your comments and opinions as well (and I won't
> apologize for letting them influence my thinking!)  :-) :-)

:)
 
> > Anyway, what happens if I need something to add to the current DTD
> > without breaking exising compatibility? what do I do?
> 
> I'd suggest you try it out in Cocoon's DTD, and then when the other
> subprojects see how cool and compelling the new feature is, they'll add
> it as well, of course!

Hmmm, being a lazy butt, I don't want to write my own stylebook skin so
that others maintain it for me :) so I'd rather try to push what I need
into the main DTD and keeping it back compatible. Yes, Pier knows what I
need...

> If they do not, then that's feedback on that feature, too.  (Negative
> feedback can sometimes be more revealing than positive feedback -- why
> DIDN'T somebody use the feature? What got in their way?  Is there
> something else that would have been more compelling?)

Totally.
 
> If they are "upward compatible" changes that don't break anything, I
> have no objection to trying them out in the main style for the xml
> site.  Just remember that every single feature that is added can also be
> just another thing that has to be learned by a new user.  Docbook is
> *immensely*  complicated, even though I'm sure that *every single new
> feature* seemed
> like a Good Idea at the time.

Right. This is why I removed the HTML4-like table and used a much
simpler one (but still a little more powerful than yours).
 
> I think Pier's idea of trying out some better table and image handling
> is a good idea.  

Yep, evolution rather than revolution.

> It can be done in an upward compatible way, so it
> doesn't cause any massive rewrites or updates, and it fixes some
> weaknesses in the grammar.  Let's give it a try, and get some custome
> feedback on it!

Please, the word "customer" doesn't have a meaning in the open source
world. We deal with "developers" and "users". that's it :) this is our
slang.

> > is it so bad to
> > have a project that takes care of handling this "customer feedback"
> > finding safe and unexpensive ways to merge them with what we already
> > have?
> 
> I don't think it's big enough yet to make sense as a separate
> subproject.  I'd suggest leaving it under Stylebook and Cocoon
> subprojects for now.  People writing these styles (style skins,
> whatever) should be encouraged to participate in the Cocoon discussion,
> in particular, since they will eventually be users of Cocoon, too...
> 
> At some point, when there are many styles, it might make sense to have a
> Style Repository, but even then it might make sense to keep it
> associated with the tool that uses the Styles, namely Cocoon.  I think
> we have to wait and see how many of these get created, and how the
> authors (artists?) feel about that.

Ok, we'll see about the skins...

Anyway, Pier and I will try to propose little painless changes to
converge...

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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