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From "Rick Ross" <r...@activated.com>
Subject Re: [ANN] EZ/X - XML Technology Preview Now Available
Date Mon, 06 Dec 1999 14:59:17 GMT
I do respect Stefano's general sentiment, agreeing with many of his points.
The original EZ/X announcement mailing, however, did not flaunt numbers as a
central theme - rather it supplied a simple statement of the benefit a user
might reasonably expect to gain with the alternative technology. The
performance reference was a short phrase within the context fo the whole
announcement. No disrespect was meant, and we regret that any has been

Subsequent discussion more emphatically seemed to focus on numbers, however,
but that discussion also had perhaps too much of a "flame-like" tone for
many people's tastes (my own included).

Performance competition, and full discussion of performance factors will
definitely ensue in other venues. As Stefano notes, healthy competition is
for the benefit and greater good of the developer and user community. The
discussions, however, should clearly take place on appropriate lists, and
this list is not one of them unless challenges are made here that require

I'm not sure where Stefano got his facts about the "story", but I doubt much
benefit will follow from a "he said, she said" either. Our version of the
"story" would be distinctly different, and the larger "meta-discussion" of
the events and forces which resulted in xml.apache.org would be long and
deep. Surely we can all agree that XML/XSL is immature technology at this
stage, and I could bring some revealing facts to light that suggest the
capital investment of industry leaders in XML/XSL core technologies will be
suppressed by the presence of the Apache project. This may not ultimately
lead to the greater good for the technology, as a whole.

Rick Ross

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Pierpaolo Fumagalli wrote:
> >
> > Mahesh Shantaram wrote:
> > >
> > > IMHO, if the product is XML-related, or promotes XML technology in
> > > some way, it should fit in here. EZ/X sounds like a promising piece of
> > > software. The best reviewers are probably on this mailing list. So, I don't
> > > see anything wrong with Tower's posting. But that's my HO!
> >
> > I don't know why (and with this mail, please let's take the discussion
> > off-line, reply me privately) most of the developers linked to
> > XML.APACHE.ORG are against those kind of messages, while people never
> > heard before are all in favour of it... I might be wrong but I think
> > that, at least here, power and right of decision should be given to the
> > developers (us!) who created this mailing list and maintain
> > xml.apache...
> I'm totally against Pier on this.
> The power here should NOT go the people creating and maintaining the
> mail list. The power of Apache are its users, not its developers. Why?
> because all of us where users before being developers.
> Since I know Pier and everybody else around here share my same feelings,
> I would like to clarify a little:
> 1) the power is _NOT_ concentrated on the hands of few. Everything is
> done publicly. I was also against the creation of private PMC list, but
> I got overruled for legal issues. Anyway, all of us trying to reduce the
> PMC messages to "how do we deal with that license", "how do we accept
> that donation", etc... nothing you will ever want to be involved in (in
> fact, I don't want either, but this is another story...)
> 2) Apache is a community. A community is created by people. People come
> here if they like it. If they don't, that's totally fine, and walk away.
> It's up to their own taste. The best comment I heard about java.apache
> was that people was getting back as soon as they could because "they
> were feeling at home, between friends". This is _NOT_ what's happening
> here and I still have to figure out why.
> So, if you subscribed yesterday and you want to express you opinion,
> damn it, you have all the rights in the world to do it. Everyone else
> has the right to disagree respectfully without imposing their status
> (because being an xxx@apache.org person doesn't make you smarter at all!
> quite the opposite sometimes: you take your status for granted, this is
> true for myself in particular)
> On the other hand, as we try to be respectful of others, we would like
> them to be as respectful.
> This EZ/X - XML technology preview might or might not interest you, but
> there are appropriate mail lists where you should be subscribed where
> these posts should happen. (xml-dev, xsl-list)
> I consider this kind of thing _very_ tasteless and I also find offensive
> that people come here and throw figures at others without respect.
> Do you want to know the story? We contacted "Activated Intelligence" to
> see if they wanted to provide their XML/XSL technology to us and
> incorporate it with the xml.apache.org project. They replied a very
> gently "no thanks, we'd like to make money on this stuff" and we were
> friends as before.
> Now they come and throw figures at us? excuse me, but how silly is that?
> How cares about speed if you can't provide a solid foundation of users
> and developers, a community to back up your effort?
> If you lack speed you tune it up, but if you lack a community?
> Competition is _alwasy_ a good thing, even between open source projects.
> How would you consider myself going into the Mike Key's mail list and
> say "Cocoon is twice as powerful as SAXON". C'mon. That's the best way
> to get flamed and to avoid users for looking at your stuff. Respect is
> _everything_ in this world.
> And we all should put respect in front of our replies, all of us.
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>                           able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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