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From "John D. Ament"<johndam...@apache.org>
Subject Re: RE: NOTICE and original copyright holders
Date Wed, 27 Jul 2016 10:34:29 GMT
Dennis,

On 2016-07-26 23:21 (-0400), "Dennis E. Hamilton" <dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote: 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John D. Ament [mailto:johndament@apache.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 17:56
> > To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> > Subject: Re: NOTICE and original copyright holders
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 2016-07-26 19:26 (-0400), "Roy T. Fielding" <fielding@gbiv.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > On Jul 26, 2016, at 3:21 PM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > All,
> > > >
> > > > I'm trying to figure out something that's thrown me off.  In what
> > cases would it be expected that the NOTICE file includes the original
> > copyright claims after an SGA has been executed?
> > > >
> > > > This is in reference to http://www.apache.org/legal/src-
> > headers.html#notice <http://www.apache.org/legal/src-
> > headers.html#notice> which includes "The NOTICE file may also include
> > copyright notices moved from source files submitted to the ASF."
> > >
> > > When the donation is made under condition that some form of copyright
> > notice
> > > remain in the work, or it is placed there a part of the donation.  Did
> > you follow the link?
> > 
> > This seems to contradict our SGA, I can't find a reference to retained
> > copyright, which I'm reading at [1].  I'm only seeing that the copyright
> > is granted to the ASF.
> > 
> [orcmid] 
> 
> This is a misunderstanding.  The statement is
> 
>    "Licensor hereby grants to the foundation:
> 
>    ") a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, irrevocable 
>     copyright license to ... ."
> 
> There is *no* transfer of copyright.  There is a copyright *license* (and then patent
license).

This is the part that wasn't clicking for me.  Thank you for pointing it out.  It also clarifies
one other point that I had struggled with in the past, basically that a licensor could continue
to maintain the codebase pre-ASF donation with all original claims in tact.  If they were
to bring in changes from the donation, thats where things wouldn't be equal.

> 
> There is no statement about retention of copyright because there is no transfer of copyright.
> 
> The copyright the Licensor has is retained.  And the Licensor can make more licenses
to others.
> 
> There are certain exclusive rights that a copyright holder has with regard to works in
which their copyright subsists.  The license grants the party to whom a license is granted
the right to also exercise some of those rights, as detailed in the license.  That does not
transfer any copyright and the recipient can't change the copyright that exists in the licensed
work(s).  
> 
> Side note #1: The Licensor need not be the copyright holder.  The Licensor could have
a valid license that allows it to make the grant to others.
> 
> Side note #2: This has nothing to do with Apache License v2.  In nowhere in SGAs, CCLAs,
and ICLAs is Apache License v2 mentioned.  However, the ability of the ASF to distribute under
an ALv2 license is something those licenses all permit, but do not require.  (See Side note
#1 [;<).
> 
> > Now, assuming what you're saying is accurate (I'm not saying its not),
> > what happens if the donator or the PMC fails to add the proper NOTICE
> > when the import is first made? Is it OK to simply add it at a later
> > point?
> > 
> > 
> > [1]: https://www.apache.org/licenses/software-grant.txt
> > 
> > >
> > > ....Roy
> > >
> > >
> > 
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