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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <dennis.hamil...@acm.org>
Subject RE: RE: NOTICE and original copyright holders
Date Wed, 27 Jul 2016 22:04:38 GMT


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunning@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 09:30
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: RE: NOTICE and original copyright holders
> 
> 
> The fact that there is no transfer of copyright is very important, from
> what I understand, because in many jurisdictions such a complete
> transfer is not even legally possible. The problem is that certain of
> the authors rights (often called "moral rights") are considered
> inalienable.
> 
> This is essentially the problem that the CC0 attempts to solve. Even
> donating your works into the public domain is difficult.
> 
> In general, granting a license is something that is pretty much
> universally recognized, especially with some sort of compensation.
> Giving away your intellectual property is not.
[orcmid] 

In the US one can create a quit-claim and even register it with the US Copyright Office. 
It does not transfer the copyright but basically agrees not to pursue infringements of the
exclusive rights of the copyright holder.  It does not mean anyone else can claim copyright
on it, just as one cannot usurp public-domain works.

The CC0 seems to have the effect of a quit-claim declaration, without registering it anywhere.
 It is simply affixed to the work.  (And there are important caveats in the description.)

> 
> This is a situation that I find frustrating, but I can live with it as
> long as the CC0 and Apache licenses let me get the effect I want in
> giving things away.
[orcmid] 

Yes. Me too.

> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 3:34 AM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org
> <mailto:johndament@apache.org> > wrote:
> 
> 
> 	Dennis,
> 
> 	On 2016-07-26 23:21 (-0400), "Dennis E. Hamilton"
> <dennis.hamilton@acm.org <mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org> > wrote:
> 	>
> 	>
> 	> > -----Original Message-----
> 	> > From: John D. Ament [mailto:johndament@apache.org
> <mailto:johndament@apache.org> ]
> 	> > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 17:56
> 	> > To: legal-discuss@apache.org <mailto:legal-discuss@apache.org>
> 	> > Subject: Re: NOTICE and original copyright holders
> 	> >
> 	> >
> 	> >
> 	> > On 2016-07-26 19:26 (-0400), "Roy T. Fielding"
> <fielding@gbiv.com <mailto:fielding@gbiv.com> >
> 	> > wrote:
> 	> > > > On Jul 26, 2016, at 3:21 PM, John D. Ament
> <johndament@apache.org <mailto:johndament@apache.org> >
> 	> > wrote:
> 	> > > >
> 	> > > > All,
> 	> > > >
> 	> > > > I'm trying to figure out something that's thrown me off.
> In what
> 	> > cases would it be expected that the NOTICE file includes the
> original
> 	> > copyright claims after an SGA has been executed?
> 	> > > >
> 	> > > > This is in reference to http://www.apache.org/legal/src-
> 	> > headers.html#notice <http://www.apache.org/legal/src-
> 	> > headers.html#notice> which includes "The NOTICE file may also
> include
> 	> > copyright notices moved from source files submitted to the
> ASF."
> 	> > >
> 	> > > When the donation is made under condition that some form of
> copyright
> 	> > notice
> 	> > > remain in the work, or it is placed there a part of the
> donation.  Did
> 	> > you follow the link?
> 	> >
> 	> > This seems to contradict our SGA, I can't find a reference to
> retained
> 	> > copyright, which I'm reading at [1].  I'm only seeing that the
> copyright
> 	> > is granted to the ASF.
> 	> >
> 	> [orcmid]
> 	>
> 	> This is a misunderstanding.  The statement is
> 	>
> 	>    "Licensor hereby grants to the foundation:
> 	>
> 	>    ") a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, irrevocable
> 	>     copyright license to ... ."
> 	>
> 	> There is *no* transfer of copyright.  There is a copyright
> *license* (and then patent license).
> 
> 	This is the part that wasn't clicking for me.  Thank you for
> pointing it out.  It also clarifies one other point that I had struggled
> with in the past, basically that a licensor could continue to maintain
> the codebase pre-ASF donation with all original claims in tact.  If they
> were to bring in changes from the donation, thats where things wouldn't
> be equal.
> 
> 	>
> 	> There is no statement about retention of copyright because there
> is no transfer of copyright.
> 	>
> 	> The copyright the Licensor has is retained.  And the Licensor can
> make more licenses to others.
> 	>
> 	> There are certain exclusive rights that a copyright holder has
> with regard to works in which their copyright subsists.  The license
> grants the party to whom a license is granted the right to also exercise
> some of those rights, as detailed in the license.  That does not
> transfer any copyright and the recipient can't change the copyright that
> exists in the licensed work(s).
> 	>
> 	> Side note #1: The Licensor need not be the copyright holder.  The
> Licensor could have a valid license that allows it to make the grant to
> others.
> 	>
> 	> Side note #2: This has nothing to do with Apache License v2.  In
> nowhere in SGAs, CCLAs, and ICLAs is Apache License v2 mentioned.
> However, the ability of the ASF to distribute under an ALv2 license is
> something those licenses all permit, but do not require.  (See Side note
> #1 [;<).
> 	>
> 	> > Now, assuming what you're saying is accurate (I'm not saying
> its not),
> 	> > what happens if the donator or the PMC fails to add the proper
> NOTICE
> 	> > when the import is first made? Is it OK to simply add it at a
> later
> 	> > point?
> 	> >
> 	> >
> 	> > [1]: https://www.apache.org/licenses/software-grant.txt
> 	> >
> 	> > >
> 	> > > ....Roy
> 	> > >
> 	> > >
> 	> >
> 	> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
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