Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-legal-discuss-archive@www.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-legal-discuss-archive@www.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 35CCF1868B for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:28:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 40381 invoked by uid 500); 11 Aug 2015 21:26:12 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-legal-discuss-archive@apache.org Received: (qmail 37830 invoked by uid 500); 11 Aug 2015 21:26:04 -0000 Mailing-List: contact legal-discuss-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: Reply-To: legal-discuss@apache.org List-Id: Delivered-To: mailing list legal-discuss@apache.org Received: (qmail 35566 invoked by uid 99); 11 Aug 2015 21:19:48 -0000 Received: from Unknown (HELO spamd1-us-west.apache.org) (209.188.14.142) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:19:48 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spamd1-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at spamd1-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTP id CF2B9DC528 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:19:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at spamd1-us-west.apache.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.678 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.678 tagged_above=-999 required=6.31 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.222, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=disabled Authentication-Results: spamd1-us-west.apache.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mx1-us-west.apache.org ([10.40.0.8]) by localhost (spamd1-us-west.apache.org [10.40.0.7]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2NYEORnBPzCz for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:19:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nm22-vm2.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (nm22-vm2.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.136.217.65]) by mx1-us-west.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mx1-us-west.apache.org) with ESMTPS id 7C8992055B for ; Tue, 11 Aug 2015 21:19:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [216.39.60.181] by nm22.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Aug 2015 21:19:30 -0000 Received: from [98.136.164.64] by tm17.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Aug 2015 21:19:30 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp226.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Aug 2015 21:19:30 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 867258.66236.bm@smtp226.mail.gq1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: GaJsIPMVM1lBROY2jUnAcyc2El8ZO_fJ_EqxNYEQ8GvoDH. 85fFGMbDn0QQNrCbIxqYl4680YmChG0od_HN.j.IqOrTF9Gss5a6TdKW7QCh CZoRtGscz.CBlCbJZcOIpf5tbmPsFnfexd5wc4GPukcTHnKWedTiXDIPL75Q ZfhkUpQjKERjucbbaulm_GGMiqLAu8sx6MqYMSyf1AHxk4IZQsJItYCTz2yG rG3s53OBAS0NB0B_l.RBMPqNJ3Z6zTeJTLCpCAiIHpI1qA6T4gCp5yYPx644 hQEZdMt_KmKKvYUFaj7R.V97r6mU_a_Z2rib83rxr_BcMcKbL4.WUgCCEe05 YusOsTldZFp0yaffvcFt39bKSlqiksm08ZdDZTubZw6b.4x1roMd9IHvjJoX .oQGRuPdH4GyVloHnFWZKKuN3rNl9xOqcGB_rwzrRQpeSBVyAwaqCeY_gmy0 jZZ4KIvHUCAMvgBNRihz.43SfQRGvIufh3LoadUi7vkkAplpMhYrdr_xEDen RQXRZBNLDXpI8h0tdGdOlkNSBvdprUxsHL92Vz3U- X-Yahoo-SMTP: .9oIUzyswBANsYgUm_5uPui0skTnzGJXJQ-- From: David Jencks Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F63AA744-BDF6-406C-8B7A-FF55B633479A" Message-Id: <4E4D9490-7D64-4F6E-9E0E-D3F802A6DB1B@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) Subject: Re: on consensus, and serenity and Eclipse Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 17:19:27 -0400 References: <12a101d0d477$48835e30$d98a1a90$@rosenlaw.com> To: legal-discuss@apache.org, lrosen@rosenlaw.com In-Reply-To: <12a101d0d477$48835e30$d98a1a90$@rosenlaw.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) --Apple-Mail=_F63AA744-BDF6-406C-8B7A-FF55B633479A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Can you detect that I am one of the members from which you have received = such an email explaining that i am happy with the current policy and = explaining how the current policy directly supports my employment? thanks david jencks > On Aug 11, 2015, at 4:49 PM, Lawrence Rosen = wrote: >=20 > Mark Thomas wrote: > > What Larry can't seem to get his head around is that the membership = is happy with the current policy and - despite the points he raises - = has no wish to change it. > =20 > =20 > The only email I can find from you in my archives even remotely on = this topic was dated 5/20/2015 and it discussed the compliance of our = Tomcat 7 release notes with the Eclipse License. Perhaps I misfiled = your comments. Please forward me any other email from you "that the = membership is happy with the current policy and - despite the points he = raises - has no wish to change it." I do acknowledge having received = some such email, but not from many members. Not many at all! > =20 > Speaking of the Eclipse License, do you want me to start another = thread about our willingness to aggregate Eclipse code with ALv2 code? I = am confident that a large number of companies = will approve = that. I am confident that the Eclipse Foundation will not object. > =20 > /Larry > =20 > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Thomas [mailto:markt@apache.org]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 1:12 PM > To: legal-discuss@apache.org > Subject: Re: on consensus, and serenity > =20 > On 11/08/2015 20:53, Tim Williams wrote: > > I'm curious how we can work ourselves out of this nagging cycle of > > Larry encouraging us to be more liberal in our licenses because we > > legally can and us responding with we don't want to even if we could > > legally get away with it? > > > > By my count, four out of the previous four months have seen this = same > > cycle in only slightly different forms. I'm confident a quick mail > > search would find at least as many months out of the previous four > > years. And, these tend to be long (>50) threads. > > > > I support challenging the status quo, questioning policies, etc. In > > fact, I believe it makes us stronger and a good rigorous debate on > > core values helps newcomers to understand the Apache Way and our > > culture in a deeper way. It's healthy community behavior and > > old-timers mostly don't mind helping folks understand the "why" = behind > > a given policy. > > > > However, it's not healthy to keep asking the same question, over and > > over, even while receiving the same answer each time. It's neither > > fun nor fruitful. Were it a technical issue, we could reason through > > it and move on much more easily. > > > > So, I wonder how we might re-assure Larry that his voice has been > > heard but also allow us not to keep reading the same argument over = and > > over? > =20 > The lengthy replies to each of the multiple times Larry has raised = this point should be more than enough to convince him his voice has been = heard. > =20 > What Larry can't seem to get his head around is that the membership is = happy with the current policy and - despite the points he raises - has = no wish to change it. > =20 > > I've thought perhaps a referendum membership vote (with steve) might > > help? or maybe an explicit vote by the board [vs implicit by keeping > > Jim around:)] or, ? > =20 > More than enough time has been wasted repeatedly responding to Larry = only for him to ignore responses he doesn't like. We don't need to waste = more time trying to appease Larry. If Larry wants to try and raise this = at the annual members meeting he is free to do so. I note he has asked = again today for folks employed by big companies to speak up with their = views on his proposal. Several of us already have (in favour of the = current policy) and he continues to ignore those posts. > =20 > At this point Larry's behaviour is best categorised as trolling and = should be treated as such. If the trolling behaviour continues then I'll = treat it the same way I'd treat it on any other ASF list: by = unsubscribing the troll. > =20 > Mark > =20 > =20 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org = > For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org = --Apple-Mail=_F63AA744-BDF6-406C-8B7A-FF55B633479A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Can you detect that I am one of the members from which you = have received such an email explaining that i am happy with the current = policy and explaining how the current policy directly supports my = employment?

thanks
david jencks

On Aug 11, 2015, at 4:49 PM, Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com>= wrote:

Mark Thomas wrote:
> What Larry can't seem to get his head around = is that the membership is happy with the current policy and - despite = the points he raises - has no wish to change it.
 
 
The only email = I can find from you in my archives even remotely on this topic was dated = 5/20/2015 and it discussed the compliance of our Tomcat 7 release notes = with the Eclipse License.  Perhaps I misfiled your comments. Please = forward me any other email from you "that the membership is happy with = the current policy and - despite the points he raises - has no wish to = change it."  I do acknowledge having received some such email, but = not from many members. Not many at all!
 
Speaking of the Eclipse License, do you want me = to start another thread about our willingness to aggregate Eclipse code = with ALv2 code? I am confident that a= large number of companies will approve that. I am confident that = the Eclipse Foundation will not object.
 
/Larry
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = Mark Thomas [mailto:markt@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, = August 11, 2015 1:12 PM
To: legal-discuss@apache.org
Subject: Re: on = consensus, and serenity
 
On 11/08/2015 = 20:53, Tim Williams wrote:
> I'm curious how we can work ourselves out of = this nagging cycle of
> Larry encouraging us to be more liberal in = our licenses because we
> legally can and us responding with we don't = want to even if we could
> legally get away with it?
>
> By my count, = four out of the previous four months have seen this same
> cycle in only = slightly different forms.  I'm confident a quick mail
> search would = find at least as many months out of the previous four
> years.  = And, these tend to be long (>50) threads.
>
> I support = challenging the status quo, questioning policies, etc. In
> fact, I believe = it makes us stronger and a good rigorous debate on
> core values = helps newcomers to understand the Apache Way and our
> culture in a = deeper way.  It's healthy community behavior and
> old-timers = mostly don't mind helping folks understand the "why" behind
> a given = policy.
>
> However, it's = not healthy to keep asking the same question, over and
> over, even while = receiving the same answer each time.  It's neither
> fun nor = fruitful. Were it a technical issue, we could reason through
> it and move on = much more easily.
>
> So, I wonder how we might re-assure Larry = that his voice has been
> heard but also allow us not to keep reading = the same argument over and
> over?
 
The lengthy replies to each of the multiple times = Larry has raised this point should be more than enough to convince him = his voice has been heard.
 
What Larry can't seem to get his head around is = that the membership is happy with the current policy and - despite the = points he raises - has no wish to change it.
 
> I've = thought perhaps a referendum membership vote (with steve) might
> help? or maybe = an explicit vote by the board [vs implicit by keeping
> Jim around:)] = or, ?
 
More than = enough time has been wasted repeatedly responding to Larry only for him = to ignore responses he doesn't like. We don't need to waste more time = trying to appease Larry. If Larry wants to try and raise this at the = annual members meeting he is free to do so. I note he has asked again = today for folks employed by big companies to speak up with their views = on his proposal. Several of us already have (in favour of the current = policy) and he continues to ignore those posts.
 
At this point = Larry's behaviour is best categorised as trolling and should be treated = as such. If the trolling behaviour continues then I'll treat it the same = way I'd treat it on any other ASF list: by unsubscribing the troll.
 
Mark
 
 
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