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From Greg Stein <gst...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: on consensus, and serenity
Date Wed, 12 Aug 2015 00:26:58 GMT
Larry just doesn't understand that we do not wish to apply any
demands/restrictions on downstream users over and above those contained in
the ALv2. We've said it many times, in many ways. He wants to talk about
technicalities, and we want to talk about policy. I haven't seen any
disagreement with his technicalities, but only how they apply/avoid to our
projects' work under the ASF umbrella.

I'm with Ross. Don't bug the Board or the Membership. Bugging VP of Legal
to "fix" his mailing list (ie. reduce the noise, improve the signal) is an
option for anybody. And yes, I've just implicitly asked him :-)

Cheers,
-g


On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Ross Gardler <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> I have come to the conclusion that Larry is not interested in simply
> "being heard". We have a consensus and according to the Apache Way that's
> enough to demonstrate he has been heard. Unfortunately, for Larry this is
> not enough.
>
>
>
> I do not support a vote by the membership, they vote for a board so they
> don't have to handle this stuff. We should not be asking the membership to
> do work they already did. There are mechanisms Larry can use to express his
> displeasure with the board, up to and including calling for the membership
> to replace them (should he feel that there are *considerably* more folks
> who support his position than have spoken here). It's up to Larry to do the
> work if he wants to make such a noise.
>
>
>
> I also don't support asking the board to explicitly endorse the current VP
> Legal. If the board had a concern about VP Legal they would deal with it.
> We should not look to the board to explicitly reaffirm its trust in an
> officer every time a single (I stress *single*) member is dissatisfied
> while many (I stress *many*) have expressed their support.
>
>
>
> For my part any mail from Larry to this list is now dumped straight into
> my trash. All other mails from Larry get through and if someone takes the
> time to reply to Larry on this list I will see that reply (so I will be
> able to detect any kind of change in the consensus balance).
>
>
>
> Ross
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Tim Williams
> *Sent: *Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:53 PM
> *To: *legal-discuss@apache.org
> *Subject: *on consensus, and serenity
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm curious how we can work ourselves out of this nagging cycle of
>
> Larry encouraging us to be more liberal in our licenses because we
>
> legally can and us responding with we don't want to even if we could
>
> legally get away with it?
>
>
>
> By my count, four out of the previous four months have seen this same
>
> cycle in only slightly different forms.  I'm confident a quick mail
>
> search would find at least as many months out of the previous four
>
> years.  And, these tend to be long (>50) threads.
>
>
>
> I support challenging the status quo, questioning policies, etc. In
>
> fact, I believe it makes us stronger and a good rigorous debate on
>
> core values helps newcomers to understand the Apache Way and our
>
> culture in a deeper way.  It's healthy community behavior and
>
> old-timers mostly don't mind helping folks understand the "why" behind
>
> a given policy.
>
>
>
> However, it's not healthy to keep asking the same question, over and
>
> over, even while receiving the same answer each time.  It's neither
>
> fun nor fruitful. Were it a technical issue, we could reason through
>
> it and move on much more easily.
>
>
>
> So, I wonder how we might re-assure Larry that his voice has been
>
> heard but also allow us not to keep reading the same argument over and
>
> over?  I've thought perhaps a referendum membership vote (with steve)
>
> might help? or maybe an explicit vote by the board [vs implicit by
>
> keeping Jim around:)] or, ?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --tim
>
>
>
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