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From Ross Gardler <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Third Party FOSS licenses
Date Sun, 02 Aug 2015 06:30:21 GMT
Larry,

It is not a legal issue. We don’t dispute the legal argument. We simply don’t want to
change our policy.

Why you are unwilling to separate those two issues and discuss them separately is beyond me.

I just remembered I have something better than a delete key, automated mail filters will press
the delete key for me.

Ross

From: Lawrence Rosen [mailto:lrosen@rosenlaw.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2015 8:36 PM
To: legal-discuss@apache.org
Cc: Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com>
Subject: RE: Third Party FOSS licenses

Dear Ralph,

It is precisely because people like you refuse to consider changes to antiquated policies
that I lead these long threads. Don't presume that I have anything more important to do than
to convince ASF, in which you are but one member, about things important to me.

My 20+ years of experience in open source law and with open source projects have given me
great endurance to overcome license compatibility issues. For example, I led the Apache negotiations
that caused GPLv3 to finally accept all ALv2 software. I have repeatedly fought the silly
"static linking" doctrine that poisoned GPL software for Larger Works long before I starting
participating at ASF; I haven't stopped that legal argument either and would welcome a court
decision.

But I assure you that until you get at least one open source attorney publicly to debate this
issue on behalf of Sam and Greg and Ross, then I have continued patience. I actually enjoy
this opportunity to hone my arguments here in public. And you have a delete key.

Not one single attorney has asked me to shut up.

/Larry

Lawrence Rosen
"If this were legal advice it would have been accompanied by a bill."

From: Ralph Goers [mailto:ralph.goers@dslextreme.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2015 8:08 PM
To: Legal Discuss <legal-discuss@apache.org<mailto:legal-discuss@apache.org>>
Subject: Re: Third Party FOSS licenses

David,

This seemingly endless discussion has been going on for so long now that I am beginning to
believe Larry just doesn’t care what the impact is on downstream users.   Everyone here
understands the argument he is making, but he doesn’t seem to understand the reason why
the ASF membership prefers the policy the way it is.

Personally, I am tired of these arguments and wish we would all just ignore this thread.

Ralph

On Aug 1, 2015, at 4:48 PM, David Jencks <david.a.jencks@gmail.com<mailto:david.a.jencks@gmail.com>>
wrote:

I hope that never happens and I expect if it does the source code will be removed as soon
as anyone notices.

While it seems clear even to me as well as you that when _apache_ publishes such contributed
code all the license conditions are satisfied, that’s not the point of the policy.  The
problem with including such source is that anyone downstream who wants to modify the work
and distribute it in binary-only form can’t.  At best they have to look at the provenance
and history of every modified file to determine what license conditions apply to that file
to see whether they have to publish the changes or not.

In the part if IBM I work in, I’d personally get to do this for any such apache project
I managed to convince the powers-that-be would be a good idea to use.  That would make my
life hell, and I’d probably avoid trying to reuse apache software we’d have to modify
in proprietary ways.  In my experience IBM is usually pretty good about pushing useful changes
back, but sometimes adapting code to different circumstances is not useful to contribute back,
and sometimes it takes a long time.

Here’s a recent concrete example:  IBM’s recently released Liberty WAS now uses the geronimo-yoko
orb.  We started on this effort about a year ago, and immediately started fixing bugs.  It
only took a couple months to get legal approval to actually use the orb, but for a variety
of reasons we didn’t get legal approval to contribute the bug fixes back until very recently.
 If we had to have scanned the code for which license each file was under and gotten legal
approval to contribute changes back before starting work, we would not have released by now.

As far as I can tell what you are proposing is perfectly legal but would make apache software
unusable for many of its current users.

thanks
david jencks

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