Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-legal-discuss-archive@www.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-legal-discuss-archive@www.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A5F7177F8 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2015 20:37:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 8840 invoked by uid 500); 11 Apr 2015 20:37:28 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-legal-discuss-archive@apache.org Received: (qmail 8682 invoked by uid 500); 11 Apr 2015 20:37:28 -0000 Mailing-List: contact legal-discuss-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: Reply-To: legal-discuss@apache.org List-Id: Delivered-To: mailing list legal-discuss@apache.org Received: (qmail 8672 invoked by uid 99); 11 Apr 2015 20:37:28 -0000 Received: from mail-relay.apache.org (HELO mail-relay.apache.org) (140.211.11.15) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sat, 11 Apr 2015 20:37:28 +0000 Received: from mail-qk0-f182.google.com (mail-qk0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) by mail-relay.apache.org (ASF Mail Server at mail-relay.apache.org) with ESMTPSA id BEFC31A0113 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2015 20:37:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qkhg7 with SMTP id g7so94537466qkh.2 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2015 13:37:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.20.141 with SMTP id 13mr15271131qku.30.1428784647215; Sat, 11 Apr 2015 13:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.186.130 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Apr 2015 13:37:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2D52F7EE739F8542A700CAB96276B5192811E757@FMSMSX108.amr.corp.intel.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 13:37:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Error in Apache 2.0 License From: Henri Yandell To: ASF Legal Discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1144bc0c5bed8d051378d96f --001a1144bc0c5bed8d051378d96f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sorry - email client didn't bring in the three other replies. Apologies for repeating what others had already said. On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: > To the other points though, they state that 'use' is a patent term (at > least in the US). So if there's no patent, why do you need to permit 'use'? > > Hen > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Richard Eckart de Castilho < > rec@apache.org> wrote: > >> If I understand Madeleine's blog entry correctly, she claims that the >> "Grant of a Patent License" can only be made for sections of the work the >> are in-fact formally patented. She believes that would not cover most of >> the Apache work, since (presumably) no patents have been filed for most of >> it. Her conclusion is, that there is no express permission given to use the >> non-patented parts of the work. >> >> I guess the question is whether a "Grant of Patent License" can be issued >> on non-patented work. >> >> -- Richard >> >> On 10.04.2015, at 01:52, Smith, McCoy wrote: >> >> > In fact, Apache 2.0 includes an express patent license to use, as there >> is to all the enumerated patent rights under 35 USC 271(a): >> > >> > >> > 3. Grant of Patent License. Subject to the terms and conditions of this >> License, each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, >> non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in >> this section) patent license to make, have made, *use,* offer to sell, >> sell, import, and otherwise transfer the Work, where such license applies >> only to those patent claims licensable by such Contributor that are >> necessarily infringed by their Contribution(s) alone or by combination of >> their Contribution(s) with the Work to which such Contribution(s) was >> submitted. If You institute patent litigation against any entity (including >> a cross-claim or counterclaim in a lawsuit) alleging that the Work or a >> Contribution incorporated within the Work constitutes direct or >> contributory patent infringement, then any patent licenses granted to You >> under this License for that Work shall terminate as of the date such >> litigation is filed. >> > >> > From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunning@gmail.com] >> > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 2:23 PM >> > To: legal-discuss@apache.org >> > Cc: Madeleine Doan >> > Subject: Re: Error in Apache 2.0 License >> > >> > >> > I am typically quite hesitant to contradict Greg on anything, but there >> is a patent grant section in the Apache license. >> > >> > What Greg says is literally correct however, in that the Apache >> Software License as an agreement between Apache Software Foundation and the >> user only grants a copyright. >> > >> > But section 3 notifies the user that there is a patent grant from all >> of the contributors to Apache software. This is one of the most important >> aspects of the Apache license. As Madeleine correctly intimated and Greg >> amplified you need both a right to copy and a right to use to have open >> software. The Apache license grants the right to copy and tells you about >> the right to use that you already have received by virtue of contributors >> contributing software under their contributor agreement. >> > >> > So the Apache licensing scheme does cover both right to copy and right >> to use. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 3:45 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >> > [ moving to legal-discuss@apache; bcc: original list ] >> > >> > Madeleine: the Apache License is a *copyright* license. That only deals >> with making copies, derivations, and several other rights, under US >> copyright law[1]. These laws do not impinge on your *use* of the software, >> once you've obtained a copy of the software under the provided license. >> > >> > *Use* of the software can only be limited via contract law. (though I >> can imagine a scenario where people attempt to limit use under the "public >> performance" and "public display" rights given by copyright law; I believe >> the AGPL is trying this, but the Apache License certainly does not) >> > >> > I have redirected your query to the legal-discuss@apache.org mailing >> list. The people here can correct my first-response, and provide answers to >> any further questions you may have. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > -g >> > >> > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_States >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:41 PM, Madeleine Doan < >> madeleinedoan144@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Hello, >> > >> > I noticed when reading the Apache 2.0 License Agreement that in Section >> 2 it read: >> > >> > "2. Grant of Copyright License. Subject to the terms and conditions of >> this License, each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, >> non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable copyright license to >> reproduce, prepare Derivative Works of, publicly display, publicly perform, >> sublicense, and distribute the Work and such Derivative Works in Source or >> Object form." >> > >> > I noticed that unlike Section 3 (which gives permissions to use the >> patented parts of the software), Section 2 gives the permissions for just >> about everything but the actual use of the software under the copyright >> license grant. This could cause trouble for the actual end user of the >> software. >> > >> > Could someone please fix this mistake? >> > >> > Here is the link to the License: >> > >> > https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html >> > >> > I've elaborated more upon the subject here on my personal blog: >> > >> > >> http://madeleinedsblogs.wix.com/productivewastedtime#!possible-mishap-in-apaches-2-license/cu6f >> > >> > My email address is madeleinedoan144@gmail.com >> > Thank you and have a nice day, >> > Madeleine >> > >> > *Disclaimer: >> > Madeleine Doan does NOT make any warranties, does not ensure the >> accuracy of information, and disclaims all liabilities arising from (but is >> not limited to) her writings, suggestions, recommendations, information and >> accuracy. This is for informational purposesONLY and is NOT meant to be >> legal advice in any way. >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org >> >> > --001a1144bc0c5bed8d051378d96f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry - email client didn't bring in the three other r= eplies. Apologies for repeating what others had already said.

On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 = at 1:36 PM, Henri Yandell <bayard@apache.org> wrote:
To the other points though= , they state that 'use' is a patent term (at least in the US). So i= f there's no patent, why do you need to permit 'use'?

Hen


=
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Richard Eckart = de Castilho <rec@apache.org> wrote:
If I understand Madeleine's blog entry correctly, she claims th= at the "Grant of a Patent License" can only be made for sections = of the work the are in-fact formally patented. She believes that would not = cover most of the Apache work, since (presumably) no patents have been file= d for most of it. Her conclusion is, that there is no express permission gi= ven to use the non-patented parts of the work.

I guess the question is whether a "Grant of Patent License" can b= e issued on non-patented work.

-- Richard

On 10.04.2015, at 01:52, Smith, McCoy <mccoy.smith@intel.com> wrote:

> In fact, Apache 2.0 includes an express patent license to use, as ther= e is to all the enumerated patent rights under 35 USC 271(a):
>
>
> 3. Grant of Patent License. Subject to the terms and conditions of thi= s License, each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, no= n-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this= section) patent license to make, have made, *use,* offer to sell, sell, im= port, and otherwise transfer the Work, where such license applies only to t= hose patent claims licensable by such Contributor that are necessarily infr= inged by their Contribution(s) alone or by combination of their Contributio= n(s) with the Work to which such Contribution(s) was submitted. If You inst= itute patent litigation against any entity (including a cross-claim or coun= terclaim in a lawsuit) alleging that the Work or a Contribution incorporate= d within the Work constitutes direct or contributory patent infringement, t= hen any patent licenses granted to You under this License for that Work sha= ll terminate as of the date such litigation is filed.
>
> From: Ted Dunning [mailto:ted.dunning@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 2:23 PM
> To: lega= l-discuss@apache.org
> Cc: Madeleine Doan
> Subject: Re: Error in Apache 2.0 License
>
>
> I am typically quite hesitant to contradict Greg on anything, but ther= e is a patent grant section in the Apache license.
>
> What Greg says is literally correct however, in that the Apache Softwa= re License as an agreement between Apache Software Foundation and the user = only grants a copyright.
>
> But section 3 notifies the user that there is a patent grant from all = of the contributors to Apache software.=C2=A0 This is one of the most impor= tant aspects of the Apache license.=C2=A0 As Madeleine correctly intimated = and Greg amplified you need both a right to copy and a right to use to have= open software.=C2=A0 The Apache license grants the right to copy and tells= you about the right to use that you already have received by virtue of con= tributors contributing software under their contributor agreement.
>
> So the Apache licensing scheme does cover both=C2=A0 right to copy and= right to use.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 3:45 AM, Greg Stein <gstein@gmail.com> wrote:
> [ moving to legal-discuss@apache; bcc: original list ]
>
> Madeleine: the Apache License is a *copyright* license. That only deal= s with making copies, derivations, and several other rights, under US copyr= ight law[1]. These laws do not impinge on your *use* of the software, once = you've obtained a copy of the software under the provided license.
>
> *Use* of the software can only be limited via contract law. (though I = can imagine a scenario where people attempt to limit use under the "pu= blic performance" and "public display" rights given by copyr= ight law; I believe the AGPL is trying this, but the Apache License certain= ly does not)
>
> I have redirected your query to the legal-discuss@apache.org mailing list. The = people here can correct my first-response, and provide answers to any furth= er questions you may have.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_t= he_United_States
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:41 PM, Madeleine Doan <madeleinedoan144@gmail.com= > wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I noticed when reading the Apache 2.0 License Agreement that in Sectio= n 2 it read:
>
> "2. Grant of Copyright License. Subject to the terms and conditio= ns of this License, each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual, worl= dwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable copyright licens= e to reproduce, prepare Derivative Works of, publicly display, publicly per= form, sublicense, and distribute the Work and such Derivative Works in Sour= ce or Object form."
>
> I noticed that unlike Section 3 (which gives permissions to use the pa= tented parts of the software), Section 2 gives the permissions for just abo= ut everything but the actual use of the software under the copyright licens= e grant. This could cause trouble for the actual end user of the software.<= br> >
> Could someone please fix this mistake?
>
> Here is the link to the License:
>
> https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html
>
> I've elaborated more upon the subject here on my personal blog: >
> http://madeleinedsb= logs.wix.com/productivewastedtime#!possible-mishap-in-apaches-2-license/cu6= f
>
> My email address is madeleinedoan144@gmail.com
> Thank you and have a nice day,
> Madeleine
>
> *Disclaimer:
> Madeleine Doan does NOT make any warranties, does not ensu= re the accuracy of information, and disclaims all liabilities arising from = (but is not limited to) her writings, suggestions, recommendations, informa= tion and accuracy. This is for informational purposesONLY and is NOT meant = to be legal advice in any way.


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