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From Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>
Subject Re: JSecurity's new name
Date Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:53:01 GMT
On Wednesday 03 December 2008 12:21:22 pm Moin Ayazifar wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Also
>
> Apache Aegis


Just an FYI:
CXF has a databinding called "Aegis" that came from XFire.   It's obviously 
not a whole project name, but it is already associated with Apache a little 
bit.

Dan


> Apache Gaurdian
>
> Thanks,
>
> Moin
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Jeremy Haile <jhaile@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > Adam, thanks for all of your thoughts.
> >
> > I particularly like these names you mentioned:
> > Apache Fortress
> > Apache Stronghold
> > Apache Shield
> >
> > Of course, we need to do some due diligence on these to determine how
> > likely they could be trademark issues with other security products.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2008, at 7:12 PM, Adam Taft wrote:
> >> Hi Emmanuel,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the quick reply.  I think it goes without saying that I'm
> >> naive about the Apache process, and obviously your history with them.
> >>
> >> Alcatraz has a very dark and negative connotation.  The prison itself
> >> was not looked upon favorably in the eyes of many.  It was an extremely
> >> controversial place, to say the least.  I can't imagine the ASF would
> >> want a subproject with that name.
> >>
> >> I really like the idea of "Apache Security API."  That really works
> >> because of the strong Apache brand prefix.  org.apache.security for the
> >> package name, etc.  It means what it says.  Or, asa4j.
> >>
> >> Some other ideas:
> >>
> >> Apache Guard
> >> Apache Fortress
> >> Apache Frontline
> >> Apache Stonewall
> >> Apache Stronghold
> >> Apache Redoubt
> >> Apache Garrison
> >> Apache Shield
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Adam Taft
> >>
> >> Emmanuel Lecharny wrote:
> >>> adamtaft wrote:
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>>> I'm not really a contributor to the JSecurity project yet (though I
> >>>> hope to
> >>>> be in the future).  However, this thread has caught my attention, and
> >>>> so I
> >>>> thought I'd give a couple of thoughts.
> >>>
> >>> thanks for the detailed mail !
> >>>
> >>>> I have an interest, call it a hobby, in name related issues for
> >>>> software projects, open source included.  So, though I don't speak
> >>>> from any official
> >>>> background (I guess beyond a little professional), I would like to
> >>>> point out
> >>>> a few things about the name Alcatraz.
> >>>>
> >>>> First, as I believe has been mentioned, the term Alcatraz has been
> >>>> associated with other software products already.  So, this is bad news
> >>>> with
> >>>> regards to trademark related issues.  Just because its a geographic
> >>>> location
> >>>> doesn't mean that it can't be trademarked.  Thus, likely these other
> >>>> software products are going to have problems with any related use of
> >>>> the term Alcatraz.
> >>>
> >>> True. Java is also a geographical location, but I guarantee you you'll
> >>> be sued immediatly if you use it for a software name ... Now, is this
> >>> the case for Alcatraz? Might be...
> >>>
> >>>> Second, the connotation for JSecurity implies that the product is used
> >>>> to
> >>>> keep people out of the protected system.  This is what the term
> >>>> "security"
> >>>> implies, right?  Alcatraz is a prison.  It was NOT meant to keep
> >>>> people out,
> >>>> it was meant to keep people in.  The use is only quasi-related, and
> >>>> even confusing, for a product with your feature set.  Alcatraz
> >>>> software would be
> >>>> a better name for a product which keeps workstation/network users
> >>>> constrained in their internet use, like a firewall, or a web proxy,
> >>>> for example.  Or a child internet monitoring product.
> >>>
> >>> This is also something which came to my mind (I personally find Knox a
> >>> better fit), but it's not as important as to have a name which can be
> >>> recalled.
> >>>
> >>>> Don't underestimate the importance of this point.  The name of a
> >>>> software
> >>>> should ideally be somewhat self describing, especially when starting
> >>>> out. Until the name becomes a core brand, having a self describing
> >>>> name can make
> >>>> a big difference.
> >>>
> >>> This is where it starts to be difficult :) The good point is that we
> >>> are encapsulated by the Apache brand, and one of the rule of thumb you
> >>> can find on the apache site is : "Consider using functional names,
> >>> especially for products of existing projects, e.g. for an "Apache Foo"
> >>> project, the product name "Apache Foo Pipelines". "
> >>> (http://www.apache.org/dev/project-names.html)
> >>> Something like Apache Security API for Java would be a perfect fit,
> >>> except that it's a pretty long name (unless we call it asa4j :)
> >>>
> >>>> Third, I don't think you can underestimate how important it is that
> >>>> people
> >>>> can search the name of your product and find it through Google (and
> >>>> friends).  Clearly the term Alcatraz has a huge number of unrelated
> >>>> hits,
> >>>> and you would clearly be lost any search engine placement with the
> >>>> name. Much better to have a name for your software that is the only
> >>>> known reference so that people can easily find you after having hear
> >>>> the name. This is why so many companies go crazy and conjure
> >>>> completely strange and nonsensical product names.
> >>>
> >>> Apache related product are quickly highly ranked.
> >>>
> >>>> <snip>
> >>>> Fifth, it seems like you're making preparations for something that you
> >>>> don't
> >>>> even know to be a problem.  Yes, the Apache legal team should be
> >>>> consulted. However, it seems like jumping the gun to just start
> >>>> changing package names
> >>>> with anticipation of a name change.  You would be crazy to start
> >>>> renaming
> >>>> packages based on some unknown possibility that it has to happen in
> >>>> the future.  What value does this add to the software?
> >>>
> >>> None, clearly, except that at some point, it should be done.
> >>>
> >>>> Following the sigma-six and/or extreme programming world view, you
> >>>> shouldn't
> >>>> be making any change to your software until the change is actually
> >>>> required
> >>>> and value is added.  Do you have a pending lawsuit?
> >>>
> >>> In any case, this is not something we should be waiting for.
> >>>
> >>>> Has the Apache council
> >>>> suggested the change?
> >>>
> >>> Three of this project's mentors has suggested that the name should be
> >>> changed. I wish we are all wrong, but I'm afraid we are not ...
> >>>
> >>>> Are you being blocked by the incubation process?  Why
> >>>> even consider a change until it needs to be done.  Energy could be
> >>>> better
> >>>> spent on other matters.
> >>>
> >>> This is a part of the incubation process :
> >>> "Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist and
> >>> check www.nameprotect.com to be sure that the name is not already
> >>> trademarked for an existing software product."
> >>> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/jsecurity.html, in Project setup.
> >>>
> >>>> <snip/>
> >>>> I think you all are better just letting this thing ride until
> >>>> something real
> >>>> convicting suggests you need a change.  JSecurity is a great product
> >>>> name
> >>>> which you should stick with until otherwise needed.
> >>>
> >>> But sadly, even if it's a good name, we think it's already used, even
> >>> if it's not trademarked. ("Trademarks exist by virtue of use, not just
> >>> registration.")
> >>>
> >>>> And, if that day comes,
> >>>> Alcatraz is just simply the wrong name, in my humble opinion, for all
> >>>> the
> >>>> reasons mentioned above.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks !
>
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-- 
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org
http://dankulp.com/blog

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