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From Craig L Russell <Craig.Russ...@Sun.COM>
Subject Re: Can changing class loader behavior in Ant can violate Java SE license
Date Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:05:07 GMT
For another take on this issue, BEA Weblogic has released details on  
their "dangerous classloader trick". Please see http://edocs.bea.com/ 
wls/docs100/programming/classloading.html#filteringClassLoader

Craig

On Feb 12, 2007, at 2:24 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:

> IIUC, the technique described in Kohsuke-san's blog is the same  
> technique used by the Tomcat web class loader to avoid using the  
> "normal" classes in the server's classpath and to use the classes  
> in the war file instead. This is a well-understood technique and my  
> only issue with the blog post is calling it a "dangerous  
> classloader trick".
>
> I'd be shocked to hear an argument that this technique violates the  
> Java SE (or any other) license. IMHO the reason Java classloaders  
> are not final is so this kind of class loading behavior is  
> possible. I'd be interested to hear anyone argue that Tomcat is  
> legal but Kohsuke-san is not.
>
> So, IANAL (TG) but I don't see any need to ask further.
>
> Craig
>
> On Feb 12, 2007, at 10:09 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Does anyone know of a clause in a Java SE license that we would
>> violate if we change class loading behavior in our code? Case in
>> point, Sun forced an version of JAXWS RI implementation into
>> JDK1.6/Mustang. Which is in fact brain dead and out-dated that the  
>> Sun
>> team is asking users to drop in JAXWS-RI 2.1 [1] if folks run into
>> problems. But the endorsed mechanism override mentioned in [1]
>> possible works because of a special hack [2]. So when i brought it up
>> and Steve sensed possible problems with Ant and how it could be
>> tackled, we get a reply back (see enclosed email) stating " it might
>> be prudent to make sure that it does not violate the Java SE license"
>>
>> So here i am asking, Can changing class loader behavior in Ant can
>> violate Java SE license? Just to cover the base, Another question
>> would be can we implement the same behavior as [2] in Axis2 to get
>> things running under JDK1.6?
>>
>> thanks,
>> dims
>>
>> PS: All the discussion is on public soapbuilders mailing list on  
>> yahoo groups.
>>
>> [1] http://weblogs.java.net/blog/vivekp/archive/2007/01/ 
>> running_jaxws_2.html
>> [2] http://weblogs.java.net/blog/kohsuke/archive/2007/02/ 
>> howitworks_runn.html
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Doug Kohlert <Doug.Kohlert@sun.com>
>> Date: Feb 12, 2007 11:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released
>> To: Steve Loughran <steve.loughran@gmail.com>
>> Cc: dims@apache.org
>>
>>
>> Steve,
>> Thanks for your explanation of how Kohsuke's solution might be a  
>> problem
>> for ant.  I am adding him to this thread.
>> I think your proposed solution to ant might be beneficial,  
>> however, it
>> might be prudent to make sure that it does not violate the Java SE
>> license.  I will raise the interop testing suggestion internally.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Steve Loughran wrote:
>>>> From: Doug Kohlert <doug.kohlert@sun.com>
>>>> Date: Feb 9, 2007 11:59 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [soapbuilders] [ANN]JAX-WS 2.1 FCS released
>>>> To: soapbuilders@yahoogroups.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Steve,
>>>> I will bring this up internally and get back to you next week.
>>>
>>>
>>> Doug,
>>>
>>> 1. I think the main concern of the Ant team would be that you don't
>>> leak classloaders over time, not because they care about memory
>>> leakage, but because it really upsets the IDE teams downstream. They
>>> want IDEs to run for weeks without problems, and complain when ant
>>> builds cause problems. I think tasks probably get cleanup for  
>>> free if
>>> they are all loaded under an AntClassLoader, but if any class loaded
>>> in a subsidiary classloader is somehow retained in any form, the
>>> custom classloader will hang around with corresponding consequences.
>>>
>>> 2. I've proposed a declarative away to manipulate which classes get
>>> passed down from the Ant classloader:
>>> http://www.1060.org/blogxter/publish/5
>>> there'd be an API way that could be used, including over reflection
>>> (useful for tasks that want to run on versions  of ant before this
>>> patch goes in)
>>>
>>> 3. On the subject of testing, here's a video on how I interop tested
>>> my WSRF impl with others:
>>>  http://smartfrog.org/autolinks/googleLTAC06.htm
>>> that was a few months ago; were I to do it now, I'd consider hosting
>>> on amazon EC2. dirt cheap, good bandwidth and better availability  
>>> than
>>> a laptop in a room in my house.
>>>
>>> The axis team have been hinting they'd like to do more classic
>>> SOAPBuilder style interop testing, and there's nothing to stop  
>>> all the
>>> OSS soap stacks from being built together and tested against each
>>> other on a daily basis. It's purely engineering effort, rather than
>>> legal issues.
>>>
>>> This would be a good incentive for the glassfish team to implement
>>> smartfrog deployment components; so far we've focused on tomcat and
>>> jboss.
>>>
>>> -steve
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services  
>> Developers
>>
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>
> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>

Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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