Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-legal-discuss-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 50529 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2005 00:44:10 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (209.237.227.199) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 25 Mar 2005 00:44:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 35423 invoked by uid 500); 25 Mar 2005 00:44:05 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-legal-discuss-archive@apache.org Received: (qmail 35278 invoked by uid 500); 25 Mar 2005 00:44:05 -0000 Mailing-List: contact legal-discuss-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Delivered-To: mailing list legal-discuss@apache.org Received: (qmail 35259 invoked by uid 99); 25 Mar 2005 00:44:04 -0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (hermes.apache.org: local policy) Received: from ussjmh01.bea.com (HELO ussjmh01.bea.com) (63.96.162.5) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:44:04 -0800 Received: from ussjfe01.amer.bea.com (ussjfe01b.bea.com [172.16.120.57]) by ussjmh01.bea.com (Switch-3.0.5/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id j2P0iUv3005941; Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:44:39 -0800 Received: from ussjex01.amer.bea.com ([172.16.120.50]) by ussjfe01.amer.bea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:43:56 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Corporate Contributions Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:43:56 -0800 Message-ID: <32D5845A745BFB429CBDBADA57CD41AF0E752617@ussjex01.amer.bea.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Corporate Contributions Thread-Index: AcUww7WpGo//4+1tR+mtItihcN/TTQAAPddw From: "Jim Barnett" To: "robert burrell donkin" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Mar 2005 00:43:56.0752 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA0C2D00:01C530D3] X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.3.24.12 X-Virus-Checked: Checked X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N There are actually three distinct legal constructs implicated by the example you give: (1) innocent purchaser status, (2) license to use vs. title, and (3) fiduciary duties of agents to their principals. One principle of common law holds that where you have a good faith or innocent purchaser who pays value for goods that turn out to be stolen, that good faith purchaser nevertheless obtains the right to keep the goods. What is key here, however, is that a "sale" has taken place. A license is a permission to do something. A license does not pass title to goods or other property. In the ASF context, the ICLA signator grants to ASF and downstream takers a license to do something with his or her contribution. He or she does not transfer title to the contribution to ASF, but instead retains title to the contribution. Accordingly, ASF and downstream licensees cannot be "purchasers" since they never receive title. A licensee generally can receive from its licensor no greater rights than the licensor had the right to grant. In the undisclosed employer scenario, the employer rather than the employee-contributor may own the contribution. If so, when the contributor grants ASF and downstream takers a license under the ICLA, that contributor can at most grant to ASF and downstream takers what the contributor had the right to grant. If the contributor had no right to make a grant at all (i.e., no license or permission from its employer with respect to that contribution), ASF and downstream takers receive no right at all to use the contribution. That is why SCO went after not only IBM, but also several prominent Linux users. Employment laws in the US and the UK both derive from English common law principles of "Master and Servant" or agency. One feature of agency law is that the agent owes his or her principal a fiduciary duty of loyalty. This means that the agent is tasked with putting his principal's interests before the agent's own interests for matters within the scope of the agency. =20 To use a 19th century hypothetical example, the principal, knowing that the barley harvest locally was poor, engages the agent to go to market and purchase as much barley as the agent is able for 50GBP. Upon arriving at market, the agent learns that a Dutch ship has just arrived loaded with barley from central Europe, boosting supply locally and depressing the price. The Dutch merchant is offering barley for 1 tonne per GBP. And has 50 tonnes available. Instead of using the principal's 50GBP to buy 50 tonnes for the principal's account, the agent instead uses the agent's own money to buy all 50 tonnes for 50GBP. The agent then offers the barley to the principal for 10GBP per tonne, thereby breaching its fiduciary duty of loyalty to the principal. To use a more current hypothetical example, say I am hired as an employee by Company Z to work on Company Z's J2EE Java Application Server. I am specifically tasked with helping develop an EJB 2.0 implementation and related work. Knowing that Company Z is interested in EJBs and J2EE in general, each night when I return home, I use my own laptop and my own ISP, electricity, etc., to develop a great EJB generation tool. Clearly that tool has direct application to Company Z's business and more specifically to the specific tasks I've been engaged to perform for Company Z. I smell opportunity and I offer the tool to the highest bidder for $10 million, in violation of my duty of loyalty. It does not matter that I have used my own time and resources. The reality is that after entering into the agency relationship with Company Z (and accepting the benefits of that relationship such as my salary), my duty of loyalty to Company Z with respect to work in the J2EE space requires that I provide all such "in scope" opportunities to Company Z as part of the agency. The principles of agency have evolved into statutory requirements which vary state by state in the US, but most states' labor laws assign ownership of work done by an employee within the employer's line of business to the employer, irrespective of when the work was done or whose resources were used to create it. It sounds as if current UK labor law may differ from the corresponding laws in the US. It may be more likely that a UK employee will own the contributions he or she develops due to more pro-Employee invention ownership laws, that increased likelihood of a "clean" contribution still does not address the root question: How does the ASF know that an employee's contribution is really "clean" in the absence of a CCLA from his or her employer? Even under UK law the question of whether the employee worked exclusively on his or her own time using his or her own resources determines whether the employer or employee owns the contribution. Has ASF ever considered some form of employer "quitclaim" document? That would be a document that acknowledges the employment status of a contributor, acknowledges that the employer is aware that the employee is working on an ASF project and has no objections, and a disclaimer of any right, title or interest in any works the employee contributes to the project. It might be less burdensome than a formal CCLA, in that the CCLA actually has the employer making representations and granting rights to ASF and downstream licensees whereas a quitclaim would really be more a disclaimer of any rights in or responsibilities for an employee's contributions. Hmm... =20 -----Original Message----- From: robert burrell donkin [mailto:rdonkin@apache.org]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 2:51 PM To: legal-discuss@apache.org Subject: Re: Corporate Contributions On Thu, 2005-03-24 at 13:41 -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > I got rid of all the CCs. >=20 > On Mar 22, 2005, at 1:51 PM, Jim Barnett wrote: >=20 > > Good points. I agree that Apache could be made safer from submarine IP > > by making the validation process for ICLA-only signators stricter. The > > question becomes "How strict is too strict?" >=20 > I've proposed asking that a CCLA be required from everyone with an=20 > employer specifically to protect the employee as well as the ASF, to=20 > prevent accidentally (or intentionally) submarining IP into a project. >=20 > I realize that this is an additional burden for contributors and the=20 > foundation, but... ("SCO, anyone?") >=20 > The JCP is also looking at this issue as there is a real fear there=20 > that IP will be contributed accidentally by an individual that would=20 > put the implementors and users of a spec (as well as the spec) at risk. FWIW i fear that requiring CCLA may cause difficulties for (in particular) european committers. IANAL but... employment law in the UK (and the rest of Europe, i think) is both different and clear: any work you do in your own time on your own machines belongs to you (unless you specifically assign it to your employers). however, the CCLA is a difficult document for european employers. the effect of it's incorporation into a UK employment contract is hard to predict. it may not be enforceable. alternatively, it may translate into a positive right to create open source on company time. at the very least, any company would be faced with the not inconsiderable expense of seeking a legal opinion.=20 i have always asked whether there are any objections to my hacking OSS in my own time (for politeness sake) but my experience has been that though employers may agree verbally and may even be willing to agree to a memorandum of understanding about the current UK employment statue, they will not sign a document like the CCLA. it simply exposes them to too many potential liabilities.=20 i also find it hard to understand how any contribution by a UK employee could put any downstream users at risk. if an employee takes existing code copyrighted by their employer and intentionally makes it available without permission then this is theft. a buyer acting in good faith who purchased stolen goods is not liable (though stands to lose the good in question which would mean that implementation would have to be rewritten around the stolen material, i suppose). this applies in a very straightforward fashion to open source contributions (from UK employees, at least): providing that the copyright has been assigned to the ASF and has no obvious signs that it has been stolen, then it can be safely accepted.=20 if the ASF is serious in going down this route then maybe some consideration of the consequences on committers outside the US may be appropriate... - robert --------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational only, are not privileged and do not constitute legal advice. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational only, are not privileged and do not constitute legal advice. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org