Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-jcp-open-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 111 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2008 10:30:43 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (140.211.11.2) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 18 Mar 2008 10:30:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 86767 invoked by uid 500); 18 Mar 2008 10:30:40 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-jcp-open-archive@apache.org Received: (qmail 86669 invoked by uid 500); 18 Mar 2008 10:30:40 -0000 Mailing-List: contact jcp-open-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jcp-open@apache.org list-help: list-unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Delivered-To: mailing list jcp-open@apache.org Received: (qmail 86646 invoked by uid 99); 18 Mar 2008 10:30:40 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 03:30:40 -0700 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.8 required=10.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,SPF_NEUTRAL X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: neutral (athena.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [192.6.10.2] (HELO colossus.hpl.hp.com) (192.6.10.2) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:29:59 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by colossus.hpl.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A6E6BA0D for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:30:08 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at hplb.hpl.hp.com Received: from colossus.hpl.hp.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (colossus.hpl.hp.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id C16MTEoWFv+a for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:30:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ha-node-br2.hpl.hp.com (ha-node-br2.hpl.hp.com [16.25.144.57]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by colossus.hpl.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C996BA0E for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:30:06 +0000 (GMT) MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1206440991.20011@P+RbWS2hdsKgCpRHfRLMYQ Received: from [16.25.171.118] (morzine.hpl.hp.com [16.25.171.118]) by ha-node-br2.hpl.hp.com (8.14.1/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m2IAToOD020633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:29:50 GMT Message-ID: <47DF99A2.4060908@apache.org> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:29:54 +0000 From: Steve Loughran User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jcp-open@apache.org Subject: Re: Handling Innovation and Producing an RI References: <9deac9fd0802190546s6007dc50g43a48069a49e0236@mail.gmail.com> <47BAE675.2040805@Stolsvik.com> <56F0DAE6-321F-4469-9B42-7F1B0DE418FC@pobox.com> <47BB17D8.2040504@Stolsvik.com> <47BB213A.3050206@Stolsvik.com> <47DE5357.5060407@apache.org> <5BC6EF08-6D5A-43BB-803C-9DD090617ACD@pobox.com> <3d4032300803170722l5f950670kb4ad1dc7ac59c928@mail.gmail.com> <47DE9DF6.8070601@apache.org> <18B44CAA-6AF1-4BAF-A18B-D4863D7A4911@SUN.com> <5011DCFC-910F-49A2-B56A-9614BDD21393@pobox.com> In-Reply-To: <5011DCFC-910F-49A2-B56A-9614BDD21393@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-HPL-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-ID: m2IAToOD020633 X-HPL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-HPL-MailScanner-From: stevel@apache.org X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: > > On Mar 17, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Craig L Russell wrote: > >> >> On Mar 17, 2008, at 10:36 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: >> >>> >>> On Mar 17, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Steve Loughran wrote: >>> >>>> Sam Ruby wrote: >>>> >>>>> Given how hard it was to challenge the TCK, in some cases we simply >>>>> complied instead. >>>> >>>> which is, in a way, an argument against JCP standards, especially >>>> those whose TCK is meant to be a secret >>> >>> I don't think I've seen a binary TCK yet. >> >> If I may comment, you have to sign a NDA to see the sources. > > The point is that you can see the source to figure out what's going on. > Clearly open source TCKs would be far better. you arent allowed to talk about the test with people that havent signed the NDA, can't include code snippets in a bug rep, cant ask people who havent signed the NDA to run the TCK over their tests before submitting a patch. That == secret to me. To be fair, Sun do make the TCK available. Whereas for OOXML, MS have published truck loads of XSD and english, and no test suites for the various XML formats that make up the system. -- Steve Loughran http://www.1060.org/blogxter/publish/5 Author: Ant in Action http://antbook.org/