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From "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoli...@buni.org>
Subject Re: Looks like Sun responded to the Open Letter
Date Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:08:23 GMT
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> On 8/11/07, Andrew C. Oliver <acoliver@buni.org> wrote:
>> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> <snip>
>> So:
>> 1. Keep voting no
>> 2. ????
>> 3. We win
> when we set out on this route, it was clear that this phase of the
> game would (most likely) be long. probably not as long as the
> alternative - hiring lawyers and battling out the meaning of the
> contract in court - but long. we need to stay the course.

That is a false dilemma.  There is also "withdrawal" as an option.
:-)  Thank you for putting "stay the course".

I don't really support "the surge" being given indefinite time to work.  
I think there are a number of people on here who don't.  In fact in the 
last vote that was taken it didn't seem that surgists had a majority.  
I'm aware of the "strategy" and I know I'm ready to call it a failure.  
We need a process for breaking this logjam.  I don't think it should 
just be up to whatever geir and a few others think.  So far "lack of 
consensus" on withdrawal has resulted in a false decision to support a 
strategy that many on here are sound off as invalid.  I view this as 
manipulative.  Lay out the strategy we're supposedly accepting as an 
alternative to withdrawal on this list and let's vote on that.  If not 
let's pick an alternative and EFFECTIVE response.  I personally don't 
think "the vote surge" will work and do not support it as a strategy.

> and it all depends on what you mean by win :-)
Thank you for that as well.

> apache's been playing this game for the best part of a decade now
And has been infected by it.
> the apache aim is to create a JCP which works equitably for everyone:
> commercial, non-profit and academic corporations; independent
> individuals; open and closed source implementations.
And it has failed.  It is time to stop.
> taking the long view, the harmony dispute just demonstrates a flaw in
> the current process. apache and sun have different views of the rights
> and obligations that the process places upon participants. there is no
> effective dispute resolution process other than resorting to contract
> law. unfortunately, this flaw has a sufficiently serious impact on
> non-profits that we've needed to reconsider our position.
> in the long run, our issues are everyone's issues. other non-profits
> need to be able to participate safely. commercial corporations need to
> be able to resolve issues within the process. most participants in the
> JCP are clearly happy to allow open source implementations of their
> specifications. if the JSPA is not sufficient then something else is
> needed. if we can stay the course then in due time i hope they will be
> resolved to our satisfaction.
CAn we have a timeline for that?
> taking the narrow view, apache has achieved many of it's goals with
> harmony. harmony is a platform that will run our java software
> notwithstanding the largess of commercial corporations. harmony is a
> vibrant community. java will be open source. competition from harmony
> and GNU classpath have encouraged sun to drive java development
> forward again.
> yes, there is still no independent certified implementation of java
> (whether GNU Classpath or harmony). and yes, harmony is still not
> certified. so, it's too early to declare total victory but it's not
> too early to thank geir and everyone else who worked on harmony for
> their contribution. cheers :-)
And all distributions are arguably tainted by at least the kodak patent.
> in the long run, once sun switches to GPL3 and can start including
> harmony code within it's product, i think that it will be clearer to
> the people at sun that a strong harmony is to their benefit.
I don't think Harmony is good enough for any code to replace any of the 
OpenJDK code.  Moreover, this lame supposition didn't happen last time 
it was used...I doubt it will happen this time.

To me it is not about harmony it is about closed fake open source.

Stop the vote surge!  Timelines for withdrawal! 
> - robert

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