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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <g...@pobox.com>
Subject Re: Looks like Sun responded to the Open Letter
Date Mon, 13 Aug 2007 00:40:26 GMT

On Aug 12, 2007, at 8:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

>>> That is a false dilemma.  There is also "withdrawal" as an option.
>>> :-)  Thank you for putting "stay the course".
>> Withdrawal is clearly an option.  We're just not ready to give up  
>> yet.  We've have a multi-year track record of success, and I  
>> expect that we'll have a successful outcome here.
> At what point is this up.  What is the timeline for withdrawal?

The board will be evaluating this on a regular basis.  We have some  
near-term milestones to examine first.

>>> I don't really support "the surge" being given indefinite time to  
>>> work.
>> Well, that would be a different subject, namely the Iraq war.   
>> (And you probably thought these references were clever...)
>> There's no "surge" here - there's a set sequence of steps that  
>> we're taking that don't involve any wishful thinking or additional  
>> resources.
> The reference was extended but it did not originate with me :-)
>> Ok.  Objections noted.  The strategy around voting was discussed  
>> and agreed to by the Apache board at the last meeting.  It will be  
>> presented in more detail to the jcp-open list later this week.
> The objections have been noted for 5 years.

And our communities that work in and around the JCP and it's specs  
have generally flourished.  Now we've run into a bit of a roadblock.   
Do you think we should just throw in the towel because of a little  
challenge like this?  This issue is worth standing up for.

>> And please don't be a quisling and traffic the "these are Geir's  
>> decisions" meme.  That's already been tried.
> But they are Geir.  Because most of board have been coming up in  
> disagreement at least publicly with most of your "cave in and take  
> it for several more years" strategy and yet at the same time...the  
> actions taken are what you favor.

How did we "cave"?  To what did we "cave"?

> I'd like to see you loose on a few points before I rejoin you in  
> the national unity party (the reference was Geir's, I just extended  
> it).  It isn't the first time I've been called a quisling by  
> you...probably won't be the last...at least we're both consistent  
> in that area.

No, I don't think that I've ever done that before, because while I've  
seen you hold a position that was contrary to the ASFs, those  
positions had merit.

> So Geir: At what point (days, weeks, months, decades) are you  
> willing to allow apache to withdraw from the JCP?

I hereby proclaim that I, Geir Magnusson, through the powers vested  
in me by my movie-star looks and buff physique, hereby allow, due to  
my munificence and aforementioned good looks, the Apache Software  
Foundation to withraw from the JCP.


To be honest, I'd like to be leading the way if we decide to leave,  
and truth be told, I'm actually personally not far from advocating  
that course of action.  But I'm only one voice, and at this point, I  
suspect that would be supporting Sun as well, because they don't seem  
to be too interested in an open java ecosystem.


> -Andy
>> geir
>>>> and it all depends on what you mean by win :-)
>>> Thank you for that as well.
>>>> apache's been playing this game for the best part of a decade now
>>> And has been infected by it.
>>>> the apache aim is to create a JCP which works equitably for  
>>>> everyone:
>>>> commercial, non-profit and academic corporations; independent
>>>> individuals; open and closed source implementations.
>>> And it has failed.  It is time to stop.
>>>> taking the long view, the harmony dispute just demonstrates a  
>>>> flaw in
>>>> the current process. apache and sun have different views of the  
>>>> rights
>>>> and obligations that the process places upon participants. there  
>>>> is no
>>>> effective dispute resolution process other than resorting to  
>>>> contract
>>>> law. unfortunately, this flaw has a sufficiently serious impact on
>>>> non-profits that we've needed to reconsider our position.
>>> yes
>>>> in the long run, our issues are everyone's issues. other non- 
>>>> profits
>>>> need to be able to participate safely. commercial corporations  
>>>> need to
>>>> be able to resolve issues within the process. most participants  
>>>> in the
>>>> JCP are clearly happy to allow open source implementations of their
>>>> specifications. if the JSPA is not sufficient then something  
>>>> else is
>>>> needed. if we can stay the course then in due time i hope they  
>>>> will be
>>>> resolved to our satisfaction.
>>> CAn we have a timeline for that?
>>>> taking the narrow view, apache has achieved many of it's goals with
>>>> harmony. harmony is a platform that will run our java software
>>>> notwithstanding the largess of commercial corporations. harmony  
>>>> is a
>>>> vibrant community. java will be open source. competition from  
>>>> harmony
>>>> and GNU classpath have encouraged sun to drive java development
>>>> forward again.
>>>> yes, there is still no independent certified implementation of java
>>>> (whether GNU Classpath or harmony). and yes, harmony is still not
>>>> certified. so, it's too early to declare total victory but it's not
>>>> too early to thank geir and everyone else who worked on harmony for
>>>> their contribution. cheers :-)
>>> And all distributions are arguably tainted by at least the kodak  
>>> patent.
>>>> in the long run, once sun switches to GPL3 and can start including
>>>> harmony code within it's product, i think that it will be  
>>>> clearer to
>>>> the people at sun that a strong harmony is to their benefit.
>>> I don't think Harmony is good enough for any code to replace any  
>>> of the OpenJDK code.  Moreover, this lame supposition didn't  
>>> happen last time it was used...I doubt it will happen this time.
>>> To me it is not about harmony it is about closed fake open source.
>>> -Andy
>>> Stop the vote surge!  Timelines for withdrawal!
>>>> - robert
>>> --Buni Meldware Communication Suite
>>> http://buni.org
>>> Multi-platform and extensible Email, Calendaring (including  
>>> freebusy), Rich Webmail, Web-calendaring, ease of installation/ 
>>> administration.
> -- 
> Buni Meldware Communication Suite
> http://buni.org
> Multi-platform and extensible Email, Calendaring (including  
> freebusy), Rich Webmail, Web-calendaring, ease of installation/ 
> administration.

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