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From: David Jencks <david_jencks@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - or,
 What can I do with a TCK?
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:59:01 -0400
To: jcp-open@apache.org


On Jul 10, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
> Thanks for putting this together.
>
> On Jul 10, 2007, at 10:33 AM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
>
>> I've been working on Apache Geronimo for a couple of years now and  
>> have heard several different stories on what one can do and can't  
>> do once an NDA has been signed.  My objective on this thread is to  
>> coalesce our communal intelligence on this matter and document the  
>> rules of engagement so the projects at the ASF, where necessary,  
>> operate on the same guidelines with the confidential material we  
>> have received.
>>
>> I have not seen any formal rules of engagement so here is how we  
>> operate in Geronimo.  Our means of operation may be paranoid and  
>> if we are doing too much then I'd like to be3 able to let some of  
>> it go.  Here is a set of rules we use (passed on from committer to  
>> committer so these may not all be actual requirements):
>>
>> 1. No XSDs provided by Sun can be reshipped because the copyright  
>> statement in them (as provided from the Sun Website) has a clause  
>> that prohibits redistribution.
>>     a. We believe this only applies to the annotations / comments  
>> as being copyrightable.  The other programtic elements are not  
>> copyrightable as they are part of the programming specification.
>>     b. As such, we type the XSDs in manually and omit the  
>> annotations and comments and then insert an Apache License.  This  
>> is considered redistributable.
>
> This sounds icky. The IP is in the text, and you are not creating  
> your own IP by typing from printed matter. This is different from  
> creating a clean room implementation. By definition, you cannot  
> create a clean room implementation of a specification interface.

I haven't completely understood the arguments I've heard about how  
apache can write spec interface jars (such as the ones geronimo has  
written), but doesn't this argument also imply that we can't write  
the source code for and compile and distribute any such interface  
jars under an apache license?  If not, what's the difference?  If so,  
where have the sun lawyers been for the last n years?

thanks
david jencks

>
> I've been working with Sun to get them to republish under CDDL all  
> of the xsd and dtd files that are needed for a compliant  
> implementation (for all of the JSRs). I think it's done now. Please  
> check and see if we have missed any. The CDDL provides for  
> redistribution.
>
> The rest of this page should be clarified by someone who has  
> primary information.
>
> Craig
>>
>> 2. One cannot openly talk about TCK status other than a binary  
>> we're certified or we're not certified.  No statements like we've  
>> passed 93% of the EJB 3.0 tests.
>>
>> 3. One cannot disclose the contents of the TCK which includes the  
>> names of test cases or code from test cases.  In some instances if  
>> a problem needs to be discussed on the dev list a new test case is  
>> created so the problem can be discussed in that context.
>>
>> 4. One cannot disclose information about the organization or  
>> internals of the TCK as provided by the licensee.
>>
>> 5. One cannot talk to other folks (outside of Apache) that are  
>> licensed for the same TCK about the results, contents or share  
>> experiences as that would violate the NDA.
>>
>> Does anyone else have any folklore tied to TCKs that they would  
>> like to get answers to?  Add them on this thread.
>>
>> It would be really useful if Geir and others familiar with our  
>> agreements can clear up any misconceptions about TCKs.  I am  
>> looking to take the contents of this discussion and add this to  
>> the JCP page or other relevant web page so we can have a common  
>> point of reference for the actual requirements and not stories  
>> passed from father to son :)
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Matt
>
> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>