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From "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoli...@buni.org>
Subject Re: TSFKAJ
Date Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:07:22 GMT
I really hate this particular method of "persuasion"...

Yeah I'm for the "weird" idea of open standards being open in that 
"global community" "weird" way.  (Color me a free software song singing 
clapping Gnu Stallmaniac, as seen ironically on YouTube, if that is so 
weird and it makes you happy...).  Otherwise they aren't IMO "open" and 
if the terms are under NDA then I cannot verify that they are 
"standards" per se (rather than just some company's proprietary royalty 
pipe dream).  Per your insistence of "not knowing what I mean" and 
taking what I'm saying out of context...  Yes, I REGULARLY sign NDAs 
when financially compensated and doing consulting specific to that 
company's business practices.  Generally open source software is applied 
as a result but not developed (occasionally there are useful pieces that 
end up back in open source).  However I do this in my own name or the 
name of a client (I no longer work for AN employer per se).  I do not do 
it in the name of Apache.  I do not call the result "community", "open" 
or "standard".  I call it "consulting".

Sun's NDAs are bad because they purportedly have a "community process" 
that is developing "open standards" and Apache signing them is bad 
because then Apache is purportedly a non profit engaged in 
community-based open source development but in actuality is doing free 
(and actually most of you I would bet would not do it if you did not 
benefit financially as a result) consulting for Sun.  I don't know what 
you guys are doing because I refuse to sign NDAs to find out :-).  I can 
say what you're doing ISN'T the development of "open standard" or "open 
source" -- in Apache's name :-)....it is consulting :-)

-Andy


Wade Chandler wrote:
> Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote, but I'm saying
> when one sees constant "Sun NDAs" are bad, Sun this
> Sun that in a tone which reflects on common business
> practices such as NDAs then it does no good and makes
> people tune out. Most companies will have you sign an
> NDA...even very small companies when you do consulting
> or are just an employee. 
>
> In certain contexts they will always be expected. In a
> context of openness and working together it is going
> to be a little weird if the idea is to have everyone
> involved (global community sense), but if the idea is
> so someone at say, Apache, can review some code which
> someone wants to give them yet does not want to give
> everything they can see when reviewing the code they
> will be expected and is common and normal and is the
> only way certain things will be given to an
> open-source organization or project or be able to be
> pulled out by some other person outside the company. I
> bet you all Sun employees have already signed NDAs
> just to have a job.
>
> Wade
>
> --- "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@buni.org> wrote:
>   
>> So asking the inverse of the question to illustrate
>> an opposing point 
>> you disagree with is impragmatic and immature and
>> not real world?  I'm 
>> either with you or an idiot?  Cool!
>>
>> -Andy
>>
>> Wade Chandler wrote:
>>     
>>> --- "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@buni.org> wrote:
>>>   
>>>
>>> Is Sun the only company which uses NDAs? I don't
>>>       
>> think
>>     
>>> so. Just to be fair ;-). It is perfectly feasible
>>>       
>> for
>>     
>>> companies to worry about IP. It just matters when
>>>       
>> they
>>     
>>> do it and in what context. I don't know about you,
>>>       
>> but
>>     
>>> I'm not rich or live with my parents or off their
>>> money, so I have to have an employer, and without
>>> them...my family doesn't eat or have a roof over
>>>       
>> their
>>     
>>> head. I think when conversations start taking
>>>       
>> these
>>     
>>> type directions people tend to tune out as
>>>       
>> opinions
>>     
>>> versus the real world often differ.
>>>
>>> Wade
>>>   
>>>       
>> -- 
>> Buni Meldware Communication Suite
>> http://buni.org
>> Multi-platform and extensible Email, 
>> Calendaring (including freebusy), 
>> Rich Webmail, Web-calendaring, ease 
>> of installation/administration.
>>
>>
>>     


-- 
Buni Meldware Communication Suite
http://buni.org
Multi-platform and extensible Email, 
Calendaring (including freebusy), 
Rich Webmail, Web-calendaring, ease 
of installation/administration.


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