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From Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Draft] New ASF/JCP Policies
Date Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:14:09 GMT
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>> On 7/1/07, Geir Magnusson Jr. <geir@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> If you want operational specifics to get have a meaningful action for
>>> the TCK/NDA issue, I'd suggest :
>>>
>>> 1) We announce that we no longer accept NDAs and will allow existing
>>> under-NDA TCK usage for 1 release.
>> +1
> 
> A period of time seems more effective.  Say, 120 days?  Even if we start
> 'fixing' some JSP's tomorrow, there will be a list of them to sort through
> and solve one-by-one (if the spec lead and the ASF concur).
> 
>>> 2) We make a public request to Sun that they formally drop any NDA
>>> requirements around our TCK usage.  If they agree, we open things
>>> up.  If they don't, we just shut it down.
>> -1 (of the non-veto variety)
>>
>> s/Sun/all affected expert groups/
> 
> +1
> 
>> s/shut it down/cease ASF representation in the expert groups that don't
>> comply/
> 
> +1, and cease using those TCK's under NDA after some period of time as
> I'd floated under +1.
> 
>> Even with these changes, I'm not a fan of making this particular
>> change retroactive, but if the majority feels that this should be
>> done, I won't stand in the way.
> 
> I'm +/- 0 on changing this for current implementations that have already
> gone through and use an existing TCK under NDA.  I'm strongly +1 for the
> change of all new code efforts, even minor bumps (say from spec v1.1 to 1.2).

I am concerned that we are in danger of cutting off our nose to spite
our face here.

I see three categories of standard body:
a) Operates in an open Apache-like manner
b) Is not open (NDAs on TCKs, closed EG lists etc) but does nothing that
 prevents us releasing implementations of the spec under AL2
c) Operates in a way (eg FOU restriction on TCK) that prevents us
releasing implementations of the spec under AL2

My main cause of concern is that the Servlet expert groups fall under b)
since an NDA is required for the Servlet TCK. I see in this thread
proposals for new ASF policy that would prevent Tomcat using the TCK for
Tomcat 7 (or whatever we call it) onwards which in turn, if I understand
how the JCP works correctly, would prevent us from claiming spec
compliance for future Tomcat versions. Given that the Tomcat project
exists to implement the Servlet and JSP specs, this would effectively
kill the Tomcat project. I don't see how this helps the Tomcat community
in any way at all and would be -1 for any such new policy.

For standard bodies of type b) I believe we are better off continuing to
participate, whilst lobbying for them to change to type a). How we get
them to change is probably a topic for another thread.

Mark


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