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From Dan Diephouse <...@envoisolutions.com>
Subject Re: test-driven standards
Date Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:02:17 GMT
Steve Loughran wrote:

> Dan Diephouse wrote:
>> Steve Loughran wrote:
>>> On the subject of standards, its my opinion that standards groups 
>>> need to adopt a lot more OSS thinking. That means
>>> -specs come with tests. Or the tests are the spec, to put it 
>>> differently
>>> -team SCM repos of test+source are public
>>> -gump does a  nightly build of everything
>>> see: see: 
>>> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/*checkout*/deployment/deployment/doc/steve/test_driven_standards.doc

>>> I'm partway there with the spec I work on, but there is so much 
>>> ignorance (we dont need tests) and unwillingness to put stuff into a 
>>> shared SCM that we dont get the full benefits
> > I can't +1 this enough. Is there any kind of legal reason why current
> > JSRs are so closed about their TCKs and sources?
> >
> Dont know about legality, but I I kind of hint at other causes in this 
> presentation on testing, where I worry about adoption being pushed 
> back by management
> http://people.apache.org/~stevel/slides/testing.pdf
> Interestingly, junit testing is far more prevalent in java OSS than 
> 'enterprise grade' apps that I often encounter. I havent yet come up 
> with a good reason for this, but some hypotheses:
>  -pressure from above to deliver code, no management pressure for tests.
>  -more innovation in process is happening in OSS
>  -in OSS-land, everybody knows not to trust an app without junit tests 
> (or regular gump outages)
> I have a dream, and the dream is: every W3C standard, every JCP 
> program has an SVN repo with a test suite, and gump builds every one, 
> every night. Help me realise this dream... (*)
Already read your presentation from your blog, but thanks. I totally 
agree with you. And FWIW your experience with unit testing in the 
enterprise lines up completely with mine. I for the most part feel its 
ingorance. A lot of organizations are isolated and live in their own 
little world.

I will to try to help realize the dream because it is a dream of mine as 
well. There is no reason not to make the JSR source and tests available 
under the CDDL or some such license. I'm not sure how effective I will 
be through the ASF, but we'll see :-)

- Dan

Dan Diephouse
Envoi Solutions LLC

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