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From Andrew Savory <s...@luminas.co.uk>
Subject Re: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon
Date Sun, 26 Sep 2004 23:10:44 GMT

(wow, this really is the thread that just wouldn't die!)

On 26 Sep 2004, at 23:48, Stephen McConnell wrote:

> What is in question is the openness of the Apache Software Foundation
> and that question is of interest to every committer at Apache.

Sure, fine, I think most people get that.

> It is my opinion the Niclas posted his initial comments to the list
> simply as a "heads-up" to each and every committer here that something
> happened recently that simply was not right.

No problem with Niclas bringing up the question. His methodology, 
however, was inappropriate.

>> you seem to agree that acceptable behaviour is defined by agreements.
>> very well, let me spell it out: by participating in the apache
> projects,
>> you are tacitly agreeing to abide by the rules behaviour the
> organisation
>> considers acceptable.  in case it wasn't clear, let me make it so now:
>> one of those is "if someone entrusts information to you in confidence,
>> you DO NOT expose it unless legally required or with the permission of
>> the source."
> Will the actions taken by Niclas in defending the principals of 
> openness
> and community within the ASF simply lead to another statement of
> "serious reservation" concerning his role and potential contribution?

You're missing the point and blowing things out of proportion. The 
point here, in case you missed it, is that Niclas posted private mail 
on a public list. This is extremely bad manners, and breaches the 
"rules behaviour the organisation considers acceptable" - organisation 
here not necessarily being ASF, but the general internet 

> For the record - the relevant elements of the email header of the
> notification I received and from which I initiated a dialog with Niclas
> are included here:
>   Return-Path: <gstein@apache.org>
>   Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:53:12 -0700
>   From: Greg Stein <gstein@apache.org>
>   To: pmc@avalon.apache.org, tbennett@apache.org, farr@apache.org,
> 	cfieber@apache.org, niclas@apache.org, akarasulu@apache.org,
> 	mcconnell@apache.org, oberhack@apache.org
>   Cc: board@apache.org
>   Subject: Board Commentary: Metro and Avalon

Yup, so completely private to a bunch of individuals and the Avalon 
PMC. So, a general discussion of "how do we cope with people that don't 
play by the rules?" would be appropriate on community@, but using a 
private email to kickstart such a debate is NOT appropriate.

> Please consider this message as my direct and immediate challenge.

Yup, see you could do with rewording the challenge a little ;-) How 
about a more friendly "how do we deal with generic situation X" rather 
than "why is Fred annoyed with Barney"? If you were to start the thread 
again with a more polite and netiquette-friendly[1] question, I'm sure 
we'd get out of this flame-war we're mired in and into some sensible 
conversation. You'd probably stop boring the pants off most of the 
community, too :-)

Just my 2p.

[1] http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html and more specifically 
http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/courtesy1.html point (11)



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