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From Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Style of community building
Date Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:18:32 GMT
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 September 2004 22:08, Sam Ruby wrote:
> 
>>>Hindsight is easy, and I am not sure whether your intention is to punish
>>>parts (not all) of those who made it happen, plus some people who hasn't
>>>been involved (for instance commercial users).
>>
>>The intent is not to punish anyone, at all.  For example, how are
>>commercial users damaged in any way by the way the ASF choses to
>>organize its work into projects?  This is not meant to be a rhetorical
>>question, I am genuinely curious.
> 
> I will give you one particular example, as I personally feel somewhat 
> responsible for dragging him into this mess.
> One of the most active users with Merlin is Andreas Oberhack, who works with 
> financial institutions. He have just secured the first phase of a massive 
> undertaking for a German bank. According to him, persuading the technical IT 
> department of the downsides of J2EE and the really positive sides of Merlin 
> in large and complex applications. However, the management in banks are 
> generally very conservative about outside products in general and OSS in 
> particular. He spent the majority of "selling Merlin" on the notions of the 
> liberal ASL, the long-lived community behind it, access to the sources, and 
> the usual arguments in favour of OSS and particularly BSD-styled products.
> How much that management based their decision on the solidity of the ASF is 
> uncertain, but hate to envision that Andreas would loose any additional 
> phases of work, or worse mis-representing the ASF and its longevity of 
> products and be held liable, over this. I am not saying it will happen if we 
> move Metro elsewhere, just the thought makes me at unease.
> 
> I hope that puts things in a perspective.

"long-lived community" is the key phrase.

I started Gump.  Gump has essentially been completely rewritten since I 
last made any major contribution to it.  Yet the community remains.  And 
the interfaces (in the form of data definitions, in this case) are stable.

Successful communities outlast their leaders.

In any case, this does not answer the question as to how the lack of a 
top level project for Metro would damage a commercial user.

>>>Did my suggestion reach you at all, or is it considered, what Ken refers
>>>to as, a "hand wave" ?
> 
>>When someone points out that Ken has erred, he investigates the root
>>cause, shares it, and takes full responsibility for the error.
> 
> Some miscommunication must have occurred. :o)
> I wasn't asking about Ken, just used a term he has used to dismiss statements 
> from me previously. "Hand wave" == "Nothing to take note of".
> 
> Instead, I suggested that we learn from the Avalon experience, and try to 
> establish a mechanism that safe guard all projects in the ASF from it 
> happening elsewhere in the future.
> I spoke of "Markers" indicating something is not right, and "Safety Valves" 
> (Aaron, not values) to steer things back on track, long before we issue "... 
> severe reservations of ... being part of...".

I will note that the key portion of my reply has been elided, and that 
another discussion has been inserted.

People who know me will attest to the fact that I can be annoyingly 
patient and persistant.

We can discuss other things if you like, but until there is a proposal 
which adequately covers the technical and community aspects, you won't 
have this director's vote.

- Sam Ruby

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