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From Niclas Hedhman <nic...@hedhman.org>
Subject Re: Style of community building
Date Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:50:31 GMT
On Tuesday 28 September 2004 22:08, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > Hindsight is easy, and I am not sure whether your intention is to punish
> > parts (not all) of those who made it happen, plus some people who hasn't
> > been involved (for instance commercial users).
> The intent is not to punish anyone, at all.  For example, how are
> commercial users damaged in any way by the way the ASF choses to
> organize its work into projects?  This is not meant to be a rhetorical
> question, I am genuinely curious.

I will give you one particular example, as I personally feel somewhat 
responsible for dragging him into this mess.
One of the most active users with Merlin is Andreas Oberhack, who works with 
financial institutions. He have just secured the first phase of a massive 
undertaking for a German bank. According to him, persuading the technical IT 
department of the downsides of J2EE and the really positive sides of Merlin 
in large and complex applications. However, the management in banks are 
generally very conservative about outside products in general and OSS in 
particular. He spent the majority of "selling Merlin" on the notions of the 
liberal ASL, the long-lived community behind it, access to the sources, and 
the usual arguments in favour of OSS and particularly BSD-styled products.
How much that management based their decision on the solidity of the ASF is 
uncertain, but hate to envision that Andreas would loose any additional 
phases of work, or worse mis-representing the ASF and its longevity of 
products and be held liable, over this. I am not saying it will happen if we 
move Metro elsewhere, just the thought makes me at unease.

I hope that puts things in a perspective.

> > Did my suggestion reach you at all, or is it considered, what Ken refers
> > to as, a "hand wave" ?

> When someone points out that Ken has erred, he investigates the root
> cause, shares it, and takes full responsibility for the error.

Some miscommunication must have occurred. :o)
I wasn't asking about Ken, just used a term he has used to dismiss statements 
from me previously. "Hand wave" == "Nothing to take note of".

Instead, I suggested that we learn from the Avalon experience, and try to 
establish a mechanism that safe guard all projects in the ASF from it 
happening elsewhere in the future.
I spoke of "Markers" indicating something is not right, and "Safety Valves" 
(Aaron, not values) to steer things back on track, long before we issue "... 
severe reservations of ... being part of...".

I was hoping, that irregardless of what happens to Avalon/Metro, that this 
would be of interest of the ASF at large, since although you have harmony in 
most (all?) projects today, that doesn't necessary mean it will always 
prevail as people come and people go, new projects arrive and so forth.
History can't be changed, but one should try to learn from it and avoid the 
same mistakes in the future.

  / http://www.bali.ac        /
 / http://niclas.hedhman.org / 

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