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From Henri Yandell <bay...@generationjava.com>
Subject Re: failure notice
Date Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:24:01 GMT

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

> > On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> >
> > infrastructure@ is an open list as far as I can tell. I'm subscribed and
> > am a committer like yourself.
> Henri,
> thanks,
> I can tell it that infrastructure@ is not `open list`.
> # Guess it why. can you pick up infrastructure@
> # archives at eyebrowse? -- really *closed* LIST it is,
> # from my point of views

Accepted. You can email the mail-list software for archived values, but
I've never found it that easy. I'd suggest you say that it is not an
archived list rather than not an open list, as I think many would take
that phrase to mean you think infrastructure is a private list.

> discussed at infrastructure@apache. -- (Could you please
> *give* me the number of the subscribers, if you can -- au --
> and the nice url for the reference of the infrastructural matters?)

Nope, I'm a clueful newbie with the mail list software. Still trying to
stumble through how to remove addresses from lists (some annoying
auto-replies hitting moderation).

> However, most of the committers (800 people, IIRC) would not
> have access to infrastructure@. Wow ... really *high traffic*
> list, if i remember correctly. --- not opened.
> In such a situation, using "committers@apache.org" would be better
> to notify the serious changes in the infrastructural issue.
> Committers@apache.org is very nice list for such notifications of
> serious infrastructural issues. (Do believe it -- objections?)

I don't believe that anyone on the infrastructure list would disagree that
committers@apache (or community or whatever) is the correct place to
notify ASF people of serious changes. I'm pretty sure we were all told when
Icarus/Daedalus became Minotaur, and when the email server was under major
virus attack.

Being philosophical:

Your issue is over what is considered serious. Somewhere a line has to be
drawn between information saturation (shall we ask them to forward all
mail from infrastructure@apache? :)) and lack of information, and as the
number of people who'll complain if it goes a little over is far noisier
than the number who'll complain if it goes a little under, it seems
natural that those of us in the minority will suffer a little.

Moderators will be surprised as the amount of spam drops (I was anyway).
People using OS/2 will have problems as <insert bug> happens. Non Latin-1
char-set issues might occur.

While this sucks for those having these occasional issues, the reality is
that (in open-source or closed-source communities), if it's not someone's
itch, they won't scratch it. The most we could ask for and expect to have
happen is that the Infrastructure's PMC report was sent to committers (in
an edited form as I suspect they have a much higher level of privacy than
other PMC's require). This wouldn't help you as it would mainly be the
stuff that has already been sent out, possibly with some additional stuff
about new machines.

So what solutions can be applied?

*  My personal solution at the moment is to start recording Infra
information that is important to Jakarta on the Jakarta Wiki. Who we
should talk to get what done etc. Major changes can then be emailed out to
the Jakarta community.

Scratch a personal itch, and something may grow. At the very worst your
personal itch gets scratched.

* Be forgiving to the infrastructure volunteers. While the 'thank them for
all the stuff they are doing for us' can get tiring, the reality is that
the ASF seems to be growing in resources and yet Brian has not collapsed
from exhaustion.

Just some sanctimonious thoughts,


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