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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Date Tue, 21 Oct 2003 09:58:35 GMT
I don't want to drag this along forever, but I feel I need to be 
precise because I don't want email communication to make it drier than 
it is.

On Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003, at 09:07 Europe/Rome, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:52:16 +0200
> Stefano Mazzocchi <stefano@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> When I apologized it was because of the tone of the discussion and
>> because the discussion took place in the wrong location (when
>> foundation-wide entities  start to deal with merit issues, the entire
>>
>> foundation looses the ability to increase its diversity, thus to
>> adapt better to a changing environment)
>
> Stefano, to tell the truth, what made me sad was
> the apologies from you at infrastructure@.
> You, announce@ moderator, should not have apologized because
> you were *not* guilty. What made me angry and sad was
> not the TONE of the controversy at infrastructure@.
> Rather, what I did (publish the newsletter) let
> you apologize to the other people.

I understand and respect your feelings and positions, but I also would 
like you to know that I was not sad, nor angry, just disappointed by 
what happened over at infrastructure@.

This discussions seems to be touching several human sides and it's 
probably getting bigger that is should be, but there are a few things 
that were realized:

  1) infrastructure@ should deal with infrastructure issues *only*. the 
decisions to use announce@ for publishing the newsletter should *NOT* 
have been discussed on infrastructure and any decision taken by them 
without a reasonable infrastructural concern should be void and 
overruled.

  2) open source communities tend to be aggressive environments. I don't 
know if this is because we have "our hearts on our keyboards" as Ken 
poetically phrased ('poetically' intended as a compliment, not as 
ironic criticism), if because email is such a poor communication media, 
if we use a common language and native speakers tend to forget the 
impedence mismatch with non-native speakers, if we haven't seen in 
person before, .... a lot of potential reasons.

NOTE: #2 is, IMHO, the reason why women cannot stay in an open source 
environment for long. Women dislike aggressive environments by nature.

  3) burn-out happens. I have been burned out twice and in both 
situations I left for a while. As long as one year at one point. All 
the people that I know and learned from all burned out, some left for 
some time, some left entirely.

  4) the more the foundation grows, the harder is going to be to change 
something. this appears as beaurocracy, but it's not, it's just social 
inertia and it's not as bad as it seems because it keeps thing sane.

> Yes, I knew that you did really take care of the
> mood of "community" and i suspect that you apologized
> because of it. However, it made me sad at the same time.

You shouldn't be.

I felt I had to apologize because when I consider myself part of a 
community or team (not that I'm consider myself part of 
infrastructure@, i'm just a stupid lurker there with no sysadm skills 
whatsoever), if one makes a mistake, the entire community makes it.

I don't think David and Sander did such a bad thing, they expressed 
their opinion, but I disliked the way they did and I wanted to 
apologize for the feeling you got out of this.

You felt sad but they probably felt angry at me because of this, but, 
if they did, they didn't express it publicly.

As you see, there are many sides all the time and it's really hard to 
find a balance.

It takes respect and a good dose of patience and ability to digest what 
you dislike and simply pass by without taking it personally. And, 
believe me, this is an art on its own and crosses cultural borders to 
reach the limits of wisdom.

...but I'm getting too philosophical, I think, so I stop here and just 
respect your choice.

>> Calling the ASF beaurocratic shows only how low your ability to
>> understand and adapt to a much more complex system is.
>
> No, I did not declare. I am now talking about the
> *beaurocracy* with the people in japanese government.
> Most of my juniors (Kouhai) / seniors (Sempai) are
> government officials.
>
> That's it.

Oh, then if I misinterpreted your comments. Sorry for that.

--
Stefano.


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