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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Date Tue, 21 Oct 2003 06:52:16 GMT

On Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003, at 07:03 Europe/Rome, Craig R. McClanahan 

> Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:02:35 -0400
>> (Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of announce@)
>> Rodent of Unusual Size <Ken.Coar@Golux.Com> wrote:
>>> tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common
>>> decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow
>>> and age.  imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to
>>> empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to
>>> use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and
>>> bureaucracy.
>> Thank you :)
>> The only two ways to avoid bureaucracy are :
>> * Accept the difference, heterogeneous ways of thinking
>>  with each other (with RESPECT)
>> * Invite Innovative-Mind guys/ladies constantly
>> Innovative (half of the computer engineers have such a mind)
>> way of thinking can be easily in opposition to that
>> of Conservative. This is explained by the brain
>> (In these cases, right-cerebral brain and left-limbic brain) 
>> mechanism.
>> Bureaucracy is highly tied up with left-limbic brain. Also,
>> bureaucracy is one of "social-disease"s, which are curable
>> by no means. Bureaucrats tend to hide their asses,
>> possess the instinct of self-preservation, and highly
>> show the self-defense mechanism when
>> attacked by innovative (non-conservative, liberal) ones.
>> # Self-Defense Mechanism can be perceived by very funny
>> # reactions of the bureaucrats. Very Funny, Indeed.
>> The matter is worse, those who are genuine :) bureaucrats can not 
>> assay themselves as they are suffering from the disease
>> of bureaucratism.
>> This (bureaucracy) can be found here, there, everywhere in japan :)
>> Incurable serious disease of the society... As if we are awiting
>> the collapse to death of our social system within a few years.

well well, you are just going too far here, IMO.

One thing is being rude and non diplomatic. An entirely different thing 
is to be a part of a serious disease.

>> sad.

Even more sad that you can see the similarities, but not the 

When I apologized it was because of the tone of the discussion and 
because the discussion took place in the wrong location (when 
foundation-wide entities  start to deal with merit issues, the entire 
foundation looses the ability to increase its diversity, thus to adapt 
better to a changing environment)

Now, you want the system to adapt to you, but how much are you going to 
adapt to the system?

Calling the ASF beaurocratic shows only how low your ability to 
understand and adapt to a much more complex system is.

This is understandable, but not excusable as a reason to resign.

[you can just say "sorry, I'm tired" or "have no time for this" and 
that would be a perfect reason to resign, but that's another story]

> Tetsuya,
> Like many others here, I definitely appreciate your contributions on 
> the Apache Newsletter.  It has been a task needing to be done, but 
> nobody previously was willing to put in the energy and enthusiasm you 
> have shown to actually make it happen.  But I would like to point out 
> something you *might* not have given enough weight to in your own 
> thinking -- cultural sensitivity is a two way street.
> One of the hardest things for many newcomers to Apache (or other open 
> source cultures that operate similarly) is the brusque-sounding tone 
> of many comments.  It's not personal -- it's based on a (shared) goal 
> to improve things, not necessarily (or even usually) intended to shut 
> things down.  There are more than a few times when I've come close to 
> saying "to heck with this place" due to criticisms of my actions that 
> I took too personally; but not doing so was one of the best things I 
> ever avoided doing.
> Your comment about bureacracy is interesting.  For the first time in 
> my life, I've spent the last three+ years working for a big company 
> (Sun), after working for organizations with < 500 employees previously 
> in my career.  Apache's bureaucracy doesn't hold a candle to Sun's 
> :-).  Nor, from what I gather, does it compare to most other big 
> organizations either.  In fact, the real problems I see for Apache are 
> almost the opposite.  It is the *lack* of a final "authority" making 
> decisions is what causes most of the conflict I see.

True, but for &deity;'s sake, I wouldn't want to change!!!

As a wise and effective politician once said "democracy is a terribly 
poor form of government, but every other one is worse".

The meritocratic system we use has its own defects and it's 
questionable if it can scale more without collapsing on its own weight 
(due to its inverted top-bottom flow of control), but any other form of 
government would possibly induce higher efficiency, but lower our 
ability to adapt and diversify.

> In the case at hand, you ended up reacting to one person's statement.  
> That person did not speak for the Board or the Members; he spoke for 
> himself.  I personally doubt if his opinion was, or is, even a 
> majority view of whatever constituency you consider to be "the Apache 
> community."  And, the fact that the previous community@apache.org 
> discussions on this topic did not reach any definite conclusion is a 
> symptom of the *lack* of an authoritative Apache bureacracy, rather 
> than evidence that one exists.

True. But I wouldn't all "symptom" something that is, IMO, good.

> But, that's the way it is, and it's not going to change.  Apache is 
> not like your typical American cultural institution, any more than 
> it's like your typical Japanese institution.  We all need to learn how 
> to interact with this strange beast, and make it better all the while. 
>  Your expecting it to behave in a way that is comfortable to the 
> Japanese culture would be just as incorrect (and unlikely) as me 
> expecting it to behave in the American culture that I'm operating in.  
> It's not going to happen.

Very very true. We are the sum of our parts. Including the parts of 
each other cultures that we dislike, but it's not about tolerance 
(which is intrinsically egocentric and rude), it's about "respect of 
the differences", which shows how things can be learned from others 
about ourselves.

> Our choice is to deal with it, or not participate.  I, for one, voted 
> for "deal with it."  My preference would be that you did so also, but 
> that's up to you.

I completely resonate with Craig.

And the fact that this event is rather rare in the history of the 
foundation ;-) shows that having by keeping your position solid despite 
the changes in the environment, it's a weak position.

Remember what I said to you a while ago: open source values people that 
make mistakes, apologize and change their minds more than people that 
never admit so, or that keep their ego and pride in front of everything.

[I'm not talking about you personally, but in general]

My suggestion is: take a step back, relax, let the emotional energy 
calm down and then look at the problem again in a few months. you might 
find yourself and this community different from what they look to you 

And remember that coherence in a highly diverse and adapting 
environment is more than anything, showing the inability to adapt, 
improve and learn from our own and, possibly, other ones' mistakes.

It's not a virtue, it's an excuse to protect ourselves from the 
psychological effect of changes.


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