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From Pier Fumagalli <p...@betaversion.org>
Subject Re: WORA Considered Evil ;-)
Date Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:48:40 GMT
And now for the fun part...

On 26/6/03 17:28, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <stefano@apache.org> wrote:

> [...]
> Java doesn't have concepts like native process forking capabilities, no
> notion of OS security, nothing that cannot be found in all OS is present
> and, if present in different ways, it's virtualized.

Well, all "decent" OSes... You won't find "fork" in stupid WindoSH...

> So, the silly java architects want java to be your OS and in order to
> have you buy this shit, they tell you that if you don't do this, you
> won't have WORA.
> 
> And people buy it! The power of marketing.

I got rid of the marketing-centric vision imposed by Sun on Java and
suddently I realized that I started running some PERL scripts...

Ok, they might not be that nice, but in 90% of the cases, they _do_ work...

> This attitude is hurting the ability to java to be a *solution* for your
> problems, whatever they are, not simply a rotation of you problem realm.

I learned that Java is a great "glue" and inside its vision (buried beneath
a pile of crap left there by some marketing team), there is a deep concept
of "reuse"...

I've never seen anyone saying that the "code-reuse" concept applies only to
Java code, it is nice to open your eyes and see that Java can be the glue
for PERL, JavaScript, Java, and C all together. At least, that's my vision,
otherwise I wouldn't have learned the Java Native Interface by heart over
the past 6 years...

> As you, I would love to see JAMES be used as the ASF email
> infrastructure because it would allow fancy interoperability, expecially
> between the email realm and the web realm, which are, historically, hard
> to mix in an elegant and coherent way.
> 
> At the same time, I strongly believe that without a healthy amount of
> native code, it is impossible to match the sysadm needs and fears.

Java is the glue, let's glue it to what we have and trust... I believe that
3 years ago, I asked him to do a mailet that could be an interface to
"/usr/(lib|sbin)/sendmail", using Runtime.createProcess... After 2 years,
that mailet didn't come up, and well, I decided to use EZMLM...

> And I'm afraid that WORA is getting in the way and it's preventing us
> from taking java to the next level, where it enters its medieval
> religious crusade-like attitude and simply becomes a modern, peaceful
> and cooperating technology.

Now you're talking like a good UNIX user (I see that MacOS/X is changing
your perception of the world). It's all about being open, and accepting what
you're given, and where others come from.

Look at Cocoon: the "Java" glue between C (Apache), Java (the unnamed
servlet container), JavaScript (the flow layer), XML (the data model) and
databases.

THAT is what Java is all about, f*** WORA...

> Apache made java known and possible on the server side.
> 
> Now Apache has to liberate java from its WORA mental jail in order to
> move it to another level.
> 
> And in order to do this, we must commit a few sins, one of which could
> be compiling our existing code for .NET CLI and another creating APR
> Java API and stop using the java standard libraries.

But I might ask, is it a "sin" to be open and accept something else? Some
PERL code, some C#/CLI or some C++?

> Java is a lot more than what Sun wants us to believe.
> 
> Take the red pill and exit your virtualized common denominator matrix
> that the big ball of fire in the sky calls "platform", and see with your
> own eyes what java is really about.

I was taking a lot of pills few years ago... The red one must have been in
there as well, apparently! :-) :-)

    Pier



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