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From d...@multitask.com.au
Subject Re: Maven and community
Date Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:03:13 GMT
Sam Ruby <rubys@apache.org> wrote on 27/02/2003 11:39:47 PM:

> dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
>  >
>  > The ASF gains nothing new from these people, as they are mostly
>  > existing committers. The code is (c) ASF, so they gain no code from
>  > the proposal. The ASF would gain more assurance that the code being
>  > created is overseen by people directly responsible and involved in
>  > its creation, rather than the responsibility falling to the Jakarta
>  > PMC, who I'm sure haven't got the time and energy to cover it. They
>  > would also gain a focussed community of software developers with a
>  > passionate group of users.
> 
> The proposed resolution is not the only organization which would achieve 

> that goal.  It might happen to be the best one, but it certainly isn't 
> the only one.
I'm not suggesting it is. I'd be interested to hear others.

> I do believe that a number of potentially fruitful discussions about 
> potential synergies have been shut down during this process.  This 
> troubles me.
I haven't seen that from my side, so I can't comment.

> I do not believe that all Maven developers feel the same way.  Need I 
> cite a few IRC logs to show that that a number of them, particularly 
> some of those listed as the proposed PMC, do?  Or at the very least, 
> look the other way when such sentiments are expressed?
I'm sure you could find lots of things on IRC logs that don't quote very 
well.

That's the nature of IRC; casual conversation. Reading an IRC log is like 
eavesdropping.

>  > Given the involvement of most of the proposed PMC members in other
>  > ASF efforts I'm having trouble seeing how it is justified. I'm trying
>  > not to take it personally.
> 
> As I have tried not to take the numerous and repeated comments that Gump 

> sucks or is an embarrasment to the ASF personally.
There's a difference here. Gump is a piece of software. 'Maven developers' 
are
people, myself included. And I'll ignore those blog entries about Jelly 
sucking too :)

>  > As for the challenge, I, personally, don't think that Maven needs to
>  > 'convert' other projects to use it. Other projects should use Maven
>  > if they feel it fits their needs. I personally don't feel that other
>  > projects (Forrest, Gump, Centipede, Ant, Make, Nant etc) should try
>  > to convert people. I'd rather people experimented and made up their
>  > own mind. I'd hate for someone to force a build tool on me.
> 
> Here we strongly agree.
> 
> That's why I am concerned when I see statements to the effect that 
> threre is no need for certain other efforts (for example, an ASF jar 
> repository).

I'm happy for the ASF to have a jar repository. I personally haven't seen 
a need
clearly expressed about why we need an ASF only repository. Desire, sure. 
Need?
That hasn't been clearly articulated, and we seem to be discussing low 
level details
without working out/discussing the reasons first.

I've had several discussions with Noel Bergman offline about the idea, and 
posted
recently to this list about it.

Other developers can get as involved as they would like, but I don't think 
I've been
forcing things on people.

>  > Just so I understand that last bit, you'd like to 'maximize the
>  > potential' for the 'efforts made by the Maven community' to 'benefit
>  > the ASF'. Right?
> 
> I certainly would like to see that.  To be clear, I wouldn't pursue that 

> to the expense of the self determination of people who have contributed 
> to Maven.  Nor to the expense of the self determination of those that 
> wish to pursue "competing" efforts.

A lot of things could come out of projects, such as Maven, that would be 
of
wider benefit to the ASF. When this happens, I hope people step up and 
offer 
to get involved and suggest ways of working together.

As an example, take the jar repository. Leo has cross-posted to 
turbine-maven-dev
to solicit feedback, and I've had emails from Noel Bergman as well. 
Whether
anything comes of it, who knows, but from my angle all the right noises 
are
being made.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog:      http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
Work:      http://www.multitask.com.au




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