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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Where to place Agora?
Date Wed, 05 Feb 2003 15:06:21 GMT
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>>Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
>>>I am not sure that this type of project is the right sort of thing for ASF
>>>wide attention and support. Research projects such as this are valuable
>>>playgrounds - but do not map to operational systems or components with a
>>>wider use.
>>i do not see anything in our charter that limits us to only 'operation
>>systems or components.' and i argue that this sort of social analysis
>>tool may have a very wide potential use indeed.
> I agree; and perhaps the wording is a bit 'off' and should be seen in its
> context; what I mean is that the code managed should have a long term goal
> - and need a group of volunteer to maintain it for a long time. I.e. a
> research/expriment is generally more short lived, has a type of audience
> which is less in need of the ASF infrastructure which is mostly focused n
> that 'bigger and more resiliant than a few volunteer aspects'. Widely used
> code, especially for ops purposes, often fits that category.

I agree with both of you.

I agree with Ken when he says that such tools might have a very wide 
potential use.

And I agree with Dirk when he says that he's worried that I might just 
walk away in a few weeks and the project would die of termal death.

On the other hand, if we don't create a substrate for community growth, 
how are we going to find out (evolutionistically) if the 'potential' can 
grow into something more useful?

This is why I'm asking 'where do I put it' and why I thought about 

Sam is right in pointing out that I probably don't need to let you know 
how I stand against the apache spirit, but Ken also points out that 
myself, alone, doesn't make a community.

If this wasn't software that I wrote *specifically* for the ASF, I would 
move it on SF.net and forget about it.... but the goal was to setup an 
infrastructure to allow us to *visualize* the entire state of the 
foundation, maybe collecting a snapshot of an annealed graph every day 
and make a movie out of it.... I'm sure that some cyber-anthropologists 
would *scream* to have access to the data we all have collected in our logs.

Moreover, in light in my semantic web involvement, I'm getting more and 
more unconfortable with RDF (see my semantic web fight club pictures in 
boston in the gallery at http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/) and I'm 
more and more heading myself into the concept of 'data emergence' where 
you don't go around bothering people to markup their data as *you* like 
it, but *you* make an effort to collect their data and make a sense out 
of it. I'm starting to call it 'pedantic web' myself :)

Google showed how much value can be gained out of harvesting of simple 
information (hyperlink) that locally has no apparent global meaning. As 
do email replies or IP logs for CVS logins.

There is potentially a huge value in fostering research on data 
emergence, expecially if related to reasonable-sized and well logged 
communities like ours.

so, I'm asking, how do we move from here?

Stefano Mazzocchi                               <stefano@apache.org>
    Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate [William of Ockham]

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