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From tobr...@transolutions.net (O'brien, Tim)
Subject Wiki - we've got a proposed solution - hierarchy
Date Sat, 01 Feb 2003 00:00:49 GMT
-- related to community

Community@ archives are available on Eyebrowse, and for someone not involved
in those debates they record a several pretty important discussions.  I
won't mention any names, but I think it is time to prove that this list is
"more than a big filibuster".  Maybe in the process we can bring some people
back to the community@ list through action not words.  Please come back.

Why would anyone ever think that a discussion of ASF policy on Instant
Messaging is something not to make visible?  Eyebrowse archives solve these
problems -- I only hope that lists not currently archived aren't keeping
good discourse secret.  ( ACTUALLY, now that I think about it, the Instant
Messaging policy discussion is an example of "highly ironic secrecy" . Take
a read, and think about that: 
No=1104 )


NOTE: I feel terrible about making this proposal, as I wasn't involved in
setting Wiki up, and if the proposal is accepted, it will mean real work for
"somebody else".  It might be possible for me to soon rejoin infrastructure
and volunteer to lend a hand, but we'll see about that.

Oversight of content relating to a specific PMC should be the repsonsibility
of said PMC.  It is clear that PMCs like Jakarta and James want a Wiki.  It
is not clear that PMCs like HTTP Server or Web Service have any Wiki content
as of yet.  ( DISCLAIMER: I don't speak for any PMCs, I am not a member of
any PMC.  I am observing the page HomePage. )  Say, that PMCs are made
responsible for policing content, this would require someone from the HTTP
PMC to become a RecentChanges watcher EVEN THOUGH her PMC has zero content
on the ApacheWiki.

Therefore, I propose a hierarchy of Wikis.  Every Wiki has a set of
dedicated WikiAdmins who enforce strict definitions of scope.  The
ApacheWiki will remain with it's 3 official WikiAdmins, and a separate
instance of UseModWiki or SubWiki will be installed for each PMC which opts
to create a Wiki.  PMCs are accountable to the Board, and making PMCs
responsible for Wiki content will "close the accountability loop".  This
would also centralize oversight for each PMC, (for example) an Avalon UseMod
or SubWiki instance can be set up, and individuals responsible for enforcing
scope and content regulations will be able to check a wiki specific
RecentChanges page for only Avalon.   This would also allow for an
opportunity to experiment with different Wiki technologies - much like
different PMCs have different websites.  Allowing for heterogenous
technologies, will also make it easier for PMCs to experiment with different
patches to UseMod, SubWiki, PhpWiki, Twiki, etc.. 

A PMC can choose not to have a Wiki.  In this case, if an individual
attempts to post content related to that PMC, it will be the responsibility
of the ApacheWiki admins to remove the content and inform the PMC in

Tim O'Brien 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:dirkx@webweaving.org] 
> Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 4:28 PM
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Wiki - we have a problem :)
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Costin Manolache wrote:
> > Are we now going to have similar "oversight" over the mailing lists 
> > and archives ? If someone posts a pointer to warez or porn 
> on one of 
> > the lists
> > - are we going to have to remove it from archives ?
> We have, in my opinion, sufficient oversight on the mailing 
> list already:
> ->	Mailing list are clearly assigned to specific commiter groups
> 	or pmcs; who is responsible is clear.
> ->	Most, if not all, of the committers and PMC members are
> 	subscribed to the mailing list and are clearly reading
> 	their mail.
> ->	We have moderation in place, and developer lists generally have
> 	clear and well defined scopes which are visibly policed.
> ->	We see active policing of totally off topic data.
> This is quite in contrast to the -current- wiki site; where 
> we lack clear mapping of sections to PMC's or commiter 
> groups, where we have yet no clear indication that any and 
> all changes are actively followed by the majority of the 
> committers in that section and no clear scoping.
> Dw
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