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From Ceki Gülcü <c...@qos.ch>
Subject Re: Rules for Revolutionaries
Date Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:49:33 GMT
At 08:50 09.11.2002 -0800, Costin Manolache wrote:
>Ceki,
>
>I think you got your analogy mixed up completely :-)

On the contrary, this particular analogy is pretty good even many of 
analogies aren't.

>The communism is characterized by dictatorship ( not always benevolent).
>Most western countries are characterized by democracy.

I wrote:

   On a wider scale, it was very hard for the West to fight Communism
   because the communist ideology sells much better to the
   unprivileged. Yet 75 years later, the West won, not because of its
   persuasiveness but because it had much more to show on the store
   shelves than the communists. Communism is a great idea but it doesn't
   work. Capitalism is hard to sell but it ends up having better results
   on the long run.

We are talking about different aspects. My point is that on paper
Communism *looks* much better than Capitalism. The fact that in the
West Capitalism is exercised within a liberal democratic system is
an orthogonal aspect.

After WWII many developing countries, actually most of humanity,
entertained the idea of switching to Communism. China did
switch. During much of the cold war many of the non-aligned countries
were far friendlier to Russia then to the West.

Communism is a very attractive and modern ideology. Here is a
presentation:

   Communism is a society without money, without a state, without
   property and without social classes. People come together to carry out
   a project or to respond to some need of the human community but
   without the possibility of their collective activity taking the form
   of an enterprise that involves wages and the exchange of its
   products. The circulation of goods is not accomplished by means of
   exchange: quite the contrary, the by-word for this society is "from
   each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs".

It almost sounds like us if you ask me. :-)

Source: http://www.geocities.com/~johngray/

The Libertarian Communist Home Page addresses precisely the point you
raise. The link is: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/8970/


On paper, Communism presents much better than Capitalism. This does
not mean that the implementation of a communist system has bettered
the condition of the countries were it was implemented. Not all that
glitters is gold. One must be wary of ideologies, *all* ideologies,
because they have a tendency to see only selected parts of reality.


>The communism didn't fall because of ideology - I can tell you the
>ideology had little to do with the reality. At least in some countries
>it fell because of centralized economy, abuses, etc.

This is orthogonal to my argument.

>As for the "liberal ideology" - that's how apache has worked so far.
>Every committer has a vote and a veto ( and unfortunately the veto
>can turn anyone into a small dictator ).
>
>
>Costin

--
Ceki

TCP implementations will follow a general principle of robustness: be
conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
others. -- Jon Postel, RFC 793



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