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From Henri Yandell <bay...@generationjava.com>
Subject Re: ASF Membership Nomination
Date Wed, 30 Oct 2002 04:23:22 GMT

On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Greg Stein wrote:

> "But it works -- we have committers" "But it works -- Jakarta has produced
> some great code" "But it works -- ..." Well, yes to all of those. Sure it
> did. My concern is about the impact on the community, not the ability to get
> work done. And measuring the health of a community is quite a bit less
> objective. I never had the opportunity to interact or really view or hear
> about the ins-and-outs of the Jakarta community until these past two or
> three weeks. And you know what? I think it *is* fractured, and that is sad.
> I witnessed some straight-on personal attacks on the reorg@ list, and been
> privy to others due to my Board role. People actively stating they don't
> want to work with somebody or interact with them. I've never seen the like
> in the httpd and apr communities where we avoid talking about people
> publicly. Is there a causal link? Probably not, or if so, then very minor.
> But I don't want to test the hypothesis. I don't want to give any foothold
> for community fractures; it just isn't worth the risk.

I'm no expert on community-science [I assume there is one.
anthropology?sociology?] but it would seem to be an assumption to think
that a healthy community has to be a unified community. Jakarta could be
made up of sub-communities [there's enough cross-pollination that it's
hard to see this a bit, but there are also obvious tribes] which can quite
happily be at odds with each other from time to time and yet still improve
the surrounding communities well-being.

Another example of the same thing is this list. There has been a lot of
debate/argument, largely between two communities, but the result has been

In terms of community fractures, I think the proposal to promote Jakarta
projects out of Jakarta [something I'm not against] is the one that is a
danger to the community. I think this is why that community was originally
defensive and still hedgy.

That said, I am attacking your words from the wrong side. I agree with the
closed member-discussion lists.


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