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From "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoli...@apache.org>
Subject Re: ASF Membership Nomination
Date Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:24:45 GMT
>> If they do not know what questions to ask, how are they to find the 
>> answers?  I have read what documentation was apparent to me and I 
>> feel I have a reasonable understanding of how things work.....but 
>> what if I don't?  How do I know what the base set of information I 
>> should know is?
> I have to ask so many questions these days I feel like an idiot. 
> Sometimes I ask the wrong question, and have to figure out empirically 
> how to ask the right one. But that doesn't stop me. I am trying to 
> figure out how to be a jakarta subproject, and I ask when I am 
> ignorant (perhaps even stupid if I forgot the answer given the first 
> time and I can't find it). I think I can understand firsthand what 
> it's like going in the other direction, and I have already had to 
> tread the path you describe. What worked for me was to scan everything 
> I could find, noting what seemed relevant, and asking questions.

Right, but in that case a great deal of patience must be involved in all 
directions.  However patience seems to be a precious commodity in all 

>> No but organizing the information into a "this is the minimum you 
>> should know" will lead many people to read at least that.  Then they 
>> will hopefully ask more questions.
> Absolutely. We'd be done by now if all the volumes of mail on reorg@ 
> and here were volumes of ASF doc. 8^) Mea culpa too.

hehe....but there in lies the dillemma... before the little fun on 
reorg@ I had NO idea how to submit patches to the www site!  ;-)  And 
everyone I'd asked had said "I don't know" ;-)

>> I've read them, but many people didn't subscribe to it at first, some 
>> people don't speak english natively and so the legalistic language 
>> may not be very digestable.
> Agreed, i18n'ing all this stuff is an excellent suggestion for a later 
> step. As you say, people are doubtless now catching up noi their reading.

Well you can easily deduce my opinion on the i18n thing... 
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/  (see the various languages we've begun 
translating)....and if no one does it... I give it ago ;-) even if I 
don't speak the language... this encourages those who don't wish to see 
their native languages defaced in such a way to contribute ;-)

>> and what do you suggest I search on exactly.  Do you feel that this 
>> kind of searching would be okay given the poor performance of the web 
>> server over the last few days?
>> Honestly it didn't occur to me to shell in and grep through the 
>> hundreds of megs of...  I shall do so.  (Though not via C shell which 
>> I have a great deal of distaste for :-p)
> No worry. If I knew your problem set better (or understood WTF you 
> wrote 8^) I might be able to help more. But it's worth using the 
> tools, whichever ones you like, sometimes on unusual ways. 100's of Mb 
> of grep might not be the best approach on a loaded server.

I'm looking for the text version of this:


which is supposedly in text form SOMEWHERE in CVS in some module...

>> "because thats the way we've always done it" -- perhaps a more 
>> constructive way to put this would be "Can we work to propose the 
>> changes formally before beginning to propose members on the community 
>> list and chaning the process ad hoc, would it not be better for sam 
>> to first put this up to a vote or something before just doing this"
>> On the other hand, perhaps sam regards doing this as free speech 
>> leading up to a formal revision of the process.  I guess I'll leave 
>> that up to sam rather than speculate.  While I've been posting 
>> proposed solutions to the problems as they are brought up and listing 
>> the tradeoffs as I see them and asking for further input (thereby 
>> trying to capture multiple viewpoints) , I think we're making 
>> progress on trying to build a more cohesive and open community...  
>> But then again, I'm a crazy man.
> All of the above. On the one hand, "because thats the way we've always 
> done it" doesn't invalidate a process that works. It might need to get 
> that written down for some to feel better with it.
> On the other hand free speech is cool with me, it should go without 
> saying. 8^) It is customary to abandon working within a system if one 
> exhausts all avenues there, and work outside it. I don't think that's 
> been done here yet. I do realize some folks think they have exhausted 
> all alternatives. That disconnect alone is fertile soil for polarization.

No I think its "openness" vs "closedness"..  Saying "exhaust all avenues 
working in the closed system to see if that achieves the openness you 
desire" is kinda....  self-contradicting?

>> It seems a great deal of focus has been put on how to change 
>> Jakarta... I do not feel persistantly harping on the idea is 
>> productive without concrete and constructive ideas.  I think we 
>> should begin talking about "Whats good" and "how do we improve it" 
>> rather than focusing on individuals and groups within the whole 
>> (singling them out) and finding what sucks about them.  "Perhaps the 
>> HTTPD crowd is too autocratic and secretive" -- is that a productive 
>> statement?  No.  "Lets work on finding things that are currently 
>> discussed in secret, figure out why and how they can be made more 
>> open.  For instance currently.... I suggest...."  -- The same general 
>> statement --- only its connotation is very different.  Thats how I 
>> feel about it.
> I need to say I want to put the focus on changing ourselves, as well. 
> The one thing I can't seem to see here sometimes are the results of 
> self-examination as well as examining others. I know for a fact you 
> and I are starting to agree more than we disagree, so I know that 
> unwritten process can work.

Which I guess is basically the part I agreed with...  Rather than having 
a philisophical discussion on it...lets you and I lead by example.. . ;-)


> Chuck
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