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From Jonathan Revusky <revu...@wanadoo.es>
Subject Re: The Guardian website moves to Velocity
Date Sat, 12 May 2007 17:18:27 GMT
Robert Koberg wrote:
> OK.
> 
> After trying the docbook distro, it is simply to huge to achieve good
> performance. 

I already told you quite honestly that the one from the docbook distro 
took 15x longer.

> It also writes alot to the logger which probably slows it
> down a great deal.
> 
> So I wrote my own in about an hour. I believe it handles all elements
> correctly (I think you have some CSS styling issues, though).

You're producing all the same identical output? TOC, Index, Glossary.... 
All the links have to work and so on....

What is available here? http://freemarker.org/docs/

It does need to be reproduceable. I have to be able to run it myself.


> I do see your transform taking 4 secs. Mine also takes 4 secs. Is there
> a way to get milliseconds in Ant? Even though Ant shows the times as
> equal, I think it more than proves my point.

Maybe it should be enough for the $500. I'm thinking about it. I never 
thought you could get close. OTOH, your exact terms were "blowing it 
away". You need to do better than equal something to "blow it away".

Yes, it was pretty clear that it has to be not just as fast but faster, 
I think.



> Plus you can still use it
> in the browser requiring no transformation time for *you* (I think this
> in itself should be enough to win the $500...). As always it can be run
> in many different environs and probably would be even faster if run on
> libxsl or even MSXML.

It has to produce the same output. I have to be able to run it. Which 
XSLT processor are you using?

> 
> Some caveats which might cause you to negate the effort:
> 
> * I did not create TOCs
> * I did not handle all links correctly, I think (its been a while since
> I looked at docbook)
> * I did not hook up the navigation controls

Oops, I wrote the above before reading this last bit. It has to be 
equivalent functionally, of course. I don't think a perfect diff on the 
output is necessary, but to not have TOC and index and so on, I don't 
see how that can cut it.

> 
> HOWEVER, the XSL transformation is creating all of the pages PLUS a
> single, all-inclusive one page version. So basically it is doing the
> transform twice. I hope that makes up for the caveats above.

It really has to be the same output. Maybe not to the level of a perfect 
diff-less comparison, but not having TOC or index or anything is not 
good enough, I don't think.

> 
> If that is acceptable I would think it is more appropriate to send the
> $500 to the Libertarian party in my name. If it is not acceptable, maybe
> I will work on it when the weather gets bad. Gonna go outside now...
> 
> I will send the XSL file to you separately, all 250 lines with proper
> spacing, nesting and indentation. If anyone else would like it, let me
> know.

I'd be curious to see it, but we do need TOC and index and glossary and 
whatnot and the links working.

THere is a certain vagueness about this. Which XSLT processor are you 
using? (I'm sure I made clear that a native C one is not acceptable.)

JR

> 
> best,
> -Rob
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 2007-05-12 at 01:20 +0200, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> 
>>Robert Koberg wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 23:24 +0200, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bobby boy, I am going to put my money where my mouth is. You can check 
>>>>out our docgen module and run it. If you can rewrite that XML 
>>>>transformation in XSLT and get it to run faster than the FM one we have, 
>>>>using any Java XSLT implementation, I will wire you $500. Or I'll donate 
>>>>the $500 to the charity of your choice, like maybe the W3C fan club.
>>>>
>>>>And better yet, I will eat my words in public.
>>>>
>>>>I do not believe you can do that. I think you're full of shit and I'm 
>>>>now officially getting tired of this conversation.
>>>>
>>>>The FTL that transforms the docs is, IIRC, about 400 lines. Rewrite it 
>>>>in XSLT and get it to run faste. An easy 500 bucks, go for it, dude.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Sure, OK. First I will check the validity of your docs (they are valid,
>>>right?), 
>>
>>Sure, we read it in with a validating parser.
>>
>> >
>>then I will try docbook XSL as is, if that doesn't cut it I
>>
>>>will try to write my own. I will try with the old XSL 1.0 as well. Not
>>>tonight, perhaps over the weekend though. Perhaps I will donate a
>>>FreeMakerDocumentationGeneratorTool to Velocity Tools project :)
>>>
>>>Oh, does it count if I just use the browser and RESTfully GET the XML
>>>source so that no time is needed at all on your part - 0ms? 
>>>
>>>How about this: Instead of the $500, how about you never post to the
>>>Velocity list again? If that is too great a price for you, then I would
>>>do it for the $500.
>>
>>$500 is the offer. Don't quibble, it's a pretty good offer, since you 
>>don't have to send me anything when you fail.
>>
>>It's not open-ended. I'll give you a whole month. YOu need more time? I 
>>think that's enough time to report success/failure.
>>
>>The current thing is 'ant transform'. The task takes 4 seconds on my 
>>DELL PIV at 1.6 Ghz. It reads in an 800K docbook XML and generates 149 
>>HTML files. I misspoke earlier. There is 900 lines of FTL in there. The 
>>driver program is 400 lines of java.
>>
>>It takes 4 seconds on my machine. You give me an XSLT transformation 
>>that does the same thing in 3 seconds and I wire you 500 bucks.
>>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>best,
>>>-Rob
>>>
>>>p.s. I prefer 'Robbie darling'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jonathan Revusky
>>>>--
>>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
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