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From Christoph.R...@dlr.de
Subject Re: JavaCC open sourced on dev.java.net
Date Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:39:14 GMT
Jonathan, please stop your negative comments on velocity. This tone
not help you gain users for FreeMarker. We cannot inhibit you from
writing velocity users directly to win them over, but we urge you
to stop this tone in this list.

I do not intend to start another flame war. So period with this.

Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Daniel Rall wrote:
> 
>> I'm excited to report that the development site for Sun's JavaCC
>> parser generator is now being served up via Velocity templates (by way
>> of CollabNet's SourceCast)!
> 
> 
> Daniel,
> 
> I don't begrudge you the self-congratulatory tone of the announcement. I 
> know that it is very gratifying when other people use your work. On the 
> other hand, one infers an undue level of complacency in your camp. If I 
> were someone with a significant investment in Velocity, I would find 
> this kind of unsettling. The fact remains that no Velocity development 
> to speak of has occurred for about a year. You, Daniel, are the last guy 
> to have committed any code to the core project.  And that was still 7 
> months ago. But actually, I would say that, to all intents and purposes, 
> Velocity develoment came to a standstill at least a year ago.

Velocity is good as it is. It might profit from some of the late
contributions or proposals, but this is anther theme not part of this
thread.

> 
> Now, software technology moves fairly quickly. A year is a very long 
> time. For example, I can tell you that the competing project that is 
> largely my fault (;-)) FreeMarker, has improved dramatically over the 
> last year or so. We are now in our 4th major release cycle of the last 
> 16 months, and each such cycle has added major new features. Come to 
> think of it, I wonder: what was the last significant feature added to 
> Velocity and when was it added?
> 
> Now, certainly, Velocity, due to being a jakarta project, has very good 
> placement, and gets a lot of usage out there. It certainly has a huge 
> marketing/placement advantage over FreeMarker. It is likely that 
> Velocity will continue to have more users than FreeMarker despite 
> FreeMarker's cutting edge features.
> 
> But then look at JSP. The situation there is night and day. JSP has a 
> huge placement advantage over Velocity and JSP has been improving a lot 
> too. There is JSTL and Java server faces, and now a whole bunch of 3rd 
> party JSP taglibs are making their appearance -- things like CeWolf and 
> SiteMesh and so on --  functionality that JSP users can draw on and are 
> not available if you use Velocity. (They are available from FreeMarker 
> since we added taglib support, BTW.)
> 
> So, it does not make sense to me that you guys are sitting on your 
> laurels like this. And certainly, it seems to me quite subjectively that 
> traffic on this list (I mean velocity-user) is not what it used to be...

Your tone helps to chase people away (and not twards your tool!).

> 
> So, while I don't begrudge you the self-congratulatory notes when you 
> see a high-profile website using Velocity, I actually think that some 
> apocalyptic gloom-and-doom sorts of posts would be more appropriate 
> objectively. At least if they served to rally the troops. Complacency 
> does not seem to be indicated. Not in this sector -- nosirrr.
> 
> Or really, cutting to the chase: Do you guys have any plans for future 
> development of Velocity?

Yes. But were assesing *real* user needs that are a true win for the
velocity templating engine. Some are in the queue.

> 
>>
>> http://javacc.dev.java.net/
>>
>> The happy irony is that Velocity is built on top of a JavaCC-generated
>> parser.  Gotta love that synergy.
> 
> 
> Well, FreeMarker also uses a JavaCC-generated parser. I was quite 
> interested to learn that JavaCC is now open-sourced. I learned of this 
> from your post. Thank you for that.

This was the reason for this post, and not your misuse.

> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Jonathan Revusky

-- 
:) Christoph Reck


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