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From Nathan Bubna <nbu...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Other languages?
Date Fri, 06 Jan 2006 19:53:12 GMT
ergh.  a framework is something that sets out to define the structure
of your application (i'll avoid the question of what that means for
now :), while components are building materials.  however, what you
use to build a structure will always greatly influence the shape of
it.  so the line between "framework" and "component" has been, is, and
always will be somewhat fuzzy.  the only components that don't
*appear* to influence the structural definition are the completely
ubiquitous ones.

i tip heavily toward the belief that Velocity is a component, and even
that VelocityTools largely is as well.  both are pretty much the "V"
of MVC and lack a definite "C".  even the VelocityViewServlet and
VelocityLayoutServlets are both view-centric.  likewise, the
VelocityStruts stuff is just for integration with a Struts controller;
it is not a framework alone.  (and it will likely disappear if/when
WebWork becomes Struts Action 2.0.)

granted Velocity is a very significant component and can be used to
develop an application without a framework.  but even then, it isn't
defining the controller piece. that is left to the app developer (or
just left out).

anyway, i guess what i'm saying is that i think Velocity and
VelocityTools do a pretty good job of limiting themselves to the view
layer, and as long as that is true, they should be considered
components for use with/in full frameworks and not frameworks
themselves.

and practically speaking, Will is right.  we probably need more highly
involved committers to adequately sustain a TLP at this point.

as for NVelocity, i don't see a compelling argument for how bringing
the two projects side-by-side would aid either one.  specifically, i
agree with Will.  if there's no demand for this and committment to see
it succeed, then it could too easily become dead weight and hurt both
projects.

On 1/7/06, Will Glass-Husain <wglass@forio.com> wrote:
> Hi Henri,
>
> Thanks for the note.  Just to fill everyone else in, Henri (chair of
> Jakarta) has floated a proposal to redefine Jakarta.  There's some
> discussion of this on the general@jakarta.apache.org mailing lists.   In a
> nutshell, the essence is that Jakarta morphs into a flatter "commons" type
> community offering libraries of different Java components.  To accomplish
> this, current "component" type subprojects stay as they are (like ORO),
> active initiatives of the current commons (like Commons Collections) move up
> to become Jakarta subprojects, and "framework" type projects (like Turbine
> or Tapestry) moving and become their own top level projects, reporting
> directly to the Apache Board.  The goal would be to build more of a
> community among the various Jakarta projects, simplify administration,
> clarify the Jakarta brand.  (How's that for a fifty-cent summary, Henri?)
>
> This is only proposed.  (it's worth noting that some Framework type efforts
> like Turbine have not bought into this concept yet).  If you've specific
> comments on this, I suggest taking them to the general list.
>
> But for us, the key question would be "Is Velocity a Component or a
> Framework?"  I've made the case that we are a component (and by implication,
> not interested in the visibility being a TLP would provide).  It's pretty
> clear to me that Velocity is used by dozens of open source projects (Apache
> and non) and numerous commercial efforts.  See the Powered By list for
> details.
> http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta-velocity/PoweredByVelocity
>
> Henri's been sympathetic but notes we have some framework type pieces (e.g.
> Velocity-Tools), and that we could have sub projects of our own (like
> NVelocity, not that such as been discussed).  I'll respond to that in a
> separate email.
>
> Please feel free to chip in.
>
> Cheers, WILL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Henri Yandell" <flamefew@gmail.com>
> To: "Velocity Developers List" <velocity-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 8:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Other languages?
>
>
> That was it. Someone (possibly you Will) had mentioned it to me.
>
> I mentioned the idea of Velocity going TLP to Henning and Will at
> ApacheCon last month. I'm trying to focus Jakarta's role and I think
> the various frameworks can all goto TLP, leaving the smaller
> components behind. Velocity sits halfway between framework and
> component I think, so I've not been pushing too hard for its moving.
>
> However, one advantage of going TLP would be that NVelocity could be
> invited to join in.
>
> Hen
>
> On 12/16/05, Will Glass-Husain <wglass@forio.com> wrote:
> > Yes.  Not part of the Velocity project or the Apache foundation.
> >
> > NVelocity is an explicit port to .NET.  I assume that's what you are
> > looking
> > for.
> >
> > http://nvelocity.sourceforge.net/
> >
> > If you're interested in the solution space, similar technologies are
> > Smarty
> > (PHP) and Template Toolkit (Perl) among others.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > WILL
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Henri Yandell" <flamefew@gmail.com>
> > To: "Velocity Developers List" <velocity-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 9:42 PM
> > Subject: Other languages?
> >
> >
> > Dumb question, but are there other language implementations of Velocity?
> >
> > Hen
> >
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> >
> >
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> >
>
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