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From Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>
Subject Re: Separation of CATALINA_HOME and CATALINA_BASE
Date Mon, 03 Nov 2014 22:42:09 GMT
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Leo,

On 11/3/14 5:05 PM, Leo Donahue wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Christopher Schultz < 
> chris@christopherschultz.net> wrote:
> 
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
>> 
>> Vince,
>> 
>> On 11/3/14 4:12 PM, vince.webb@thomsonreuters.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> How much easier it would be if the Tomcat distribution had the 
>>> correct separation build in.
>> 
>> It would be harder for newbies and no real benefit to experts.
>> 
>> Let me show you the difference in complexity between deploying
>> Tomcat with a unified versus split configuration:
>> 
>> Unified - -------
>> 
>> $ wget http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $ tar xzf
>> http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $
>> tomcat-x.y.z/bin/startup.sh
>> 
> 
> You can do that in linux. not so well in windows.  scripts work 
> differently.  you log out of the windows session, and the script
> stops, hence why every windows user wants to install Tomcat as a
> service, whichever way they do that.

Okay:

C:\whatever> wget http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.zip
C:\whatever> unzip http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.zip (or however you
             unzip from the CLI in Windows.. I haven't been able to
             figure that out, but it's clearer than giving mouse-click
             directions)
C:\whatever> SET CATALINA_HOME=C:\whatever\apache-tomcat-x.y.z
C:\whatever> SET CATALINA_BASE=C:\whatever\apache-tomcat-x.y.z
C:\whatever> %CATALINA_HOME%\bin\service.bat install my-great-webapp
C:\whatever> service start my-great-webapp

>> Separated - --------- $ wget
>> http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $ tar xzf
>> http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $ mkdir -p
>> my-tomcat-base/conf $ mkdir -p my-tomcat-base/log $ mkdir -p
>> my-tomcat-base/work $ mkdir -p my-tomcat-base/temp $ mkdir -p
>> my-tomcat-base/webapps $ cp tomcat-x.y.z/conf/server.xml
>> my-tomcat-base/conf $ cp tomcat-x.y.z/conf/web.xml
>> my-tomcat-base/conf (the above step may not actually be
>> necessary) $ cp tomcat-x.y.z/webapps/ROOT my-tomcat-base/webapps 
>> $ export CATALINA_HOME=`pwd`/tomcat-x.y.z $ export
>> CATALINA_BASE=`pwd`/my-tomcat-base $
>> $CATALINA_HOME/bin/startup.sh

For Windowers:

C:\whatever> wget http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.zip
C:\whatever> unzip http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.zip (or however you
             unzip from the CLI in Windows.. I haven't been able to
             figure that out, but it's clearer than giving mouse-click
             directions)
C:\whatever> mkdir my-tomcat-base/conf
C:\whatever> mkdir my-tomcat-base/log
C:\whatever> mkdir my-tomcat-base/work
C:\whatever> mkdir my-tomcat-base/temp
C:\whatever> mkdir my-tomcat-base/webapps
C:\whatever> SET CATALINA_HOME=C:\whatever\apache-tomcat-x.y.z
C:\whatever> SET CATALINA_BASE=C:\whatever\my-tomcat-base
C:\whatever> %CATALINA_HOME%\bin\service.bat install my-great-webapp
C:\whatever> service start my-great-webapp

(All this from memory... apologies if those exact commands don't work.)

>> Done.
>> 
>> So, that's not all that complicated when you think about it, but
>> to ask someone who knows nothing about a command-line, working 
>> effectively in an operating system, etc. and only knows about 
>> programming in Java -- maybe only servlet programming in Java --
>> to configure the server in the split case is confusing as all
>> hell.
>> 
>> Anyone downloading a ZIP or tar archive containing a Tomcat 
>> installation would be confused if the archive contained not one
>> but two top-level directories. Also, it would overwrite your 
>> split-configuration if you unpacked that archive in the same
>> directory as when you first started.
>> 
>> An installer program would have to explain what in the world the
>> split configuration was. Have you ever tried to tell someone how
>> to set up their email? POP versus IMAP? Most users have
>> absolutely no idea what that is, and mail programs give no clue
>> as to which one to choose. The same would be true of
>> CATALINA_HOME versus CATALINA_BASE.
> 
> 
> Everything has some degree of learning.  New people are trying to
> learn two things at once, how something works as well as the "why
> do it this way" conventions that experienced users have
> implemented.  New users don't understand the convention and want to
> learn it the hard way first before they can appreciate or even
> understand the convention.

Agreed. The point I'm trying to make is that experts are experts
because they have learned. Peeling-back the covers of Tomcat reveals
those expert features like a split configuration. Being forced to use
a split-configuration because "it's what experts do" is one sure way
to generate a lot of noise on this mailing list.

>> (Besides, I truly doubt that any expert system administrators are
>> using the Tomcat Windows Installer to install/upgrade their
>> systems. Maybe I'm wrong,
>> 
> 
> You had qualify that with 'expert'... now I have nothing more to
> add.
> 
> 
>> but then again I can't imagine running a Windows server in
>> production.
>> 
> 
> This too shall pass...
> 
> 
>> I value my sleep and prefer to build new things instead of
>> holding together configurations with chewing gum and duct tape.
>> Oh, and rebooting all the time.)
>> 
>> Anyhow, we can debate this all you want, but I will be -0 or even
>> -1 to a default split-configuration of Tomcat unless someone has
>> a really good idea for how to make it make sense to anyone on
>> their first-touch.
>> 
>> - -chris
>> 
> 
> I would rather just point (windows) people to an example of a
> split configuration or any other configuration and let them
> implement it if they choose to do so, instead of getting Tomcat
> pre-configured. Part of the draw to Tomcat is that you have
> flexibility with how you choose to run it (script, service, windows
> installer, etc)

+1
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