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From Mark Eggers <its_toas...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
Subject Re: Separation of CATALINA_HOME and CATALINA_BASE
Date Mon, 03 Nov 2014 22:16:03 GMT
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Chris,

On 11/3/2014 1:33 PM, Christopher Schultz wrote:
> Vince,
> 
> On 11/3/14 4:12 PM, vince.webb@thomsonreuters.com wrote:
>> Even Tomcat newbies have to do real work that will find its way
>> to a real server.
> 
>> Either of the benefits you described as a) and b) mean 
>> CATALINA_HOME and CATALINA_BASE need to be separate on a real 
>> server.
> 
>> I would rather get it straight from the outset rather than mess 
>> about with a configuration that is going nowhere.
> 
> Separating a unified Tomcat deployment into CATALINA_HOME and 
> CATALINA_BASE is pretty trivial. Your configuration isn't "going
> nowhere".
> 
> Do you know what's worse than a simple configuration to start that
> can grow into a complex one? One that is so complex you can't even
> get started. Have you ever configured Weblogic? There is (or was,
> back in circa 2001 when I had the misfortune of working on that
> platform) no such thing as "unzip and run bin/startup.sh to launch
> the server". No, you basically had to go and get trained (at a high
> cost, by corporate trainers, of course) to do anything at all with
> the darned thing.
> 

Other application servers are equally unpleasant in my experience.

> If you want to talk about a configuration that is going nowhere, 
> anything that is automatically done by Eclipse, NetBeans, etc. is
> not going anywhere.

By default, NetBeans does absolutely nothing to change the Tomcat
configuration. Even if you decide to use a separate CATALINA_HOME and
CATALINA_BASE, NetBeans follows the model detailed in RUNNING.txt.

> 
>> NetBeans separates out CATALINA_HOME and CATALINA_BASE, either 
>> automatically making its own decisions about the content of 
>> CATALINA_BASE or manually by allowing you to specify your own
>> hand crafted directory.
> 
>> I just made the switch from letting NetBeans populate 
>> CATALINA_BASE, to doing it myself. Naturally I want to avoid
>> having the same files appear in both directories so I went for
>> minimal content.
> 
>> How much easier it would be if the Tomcat distribution had the 
>> correct separation build in.
> 
> It would be harder for newbies and no real benefit to experts.
> 
> Let me show you the difference in complexity between deploying
> Tomcat with a unified versus split configuration:
> 
> Unified -------
> 
> $ wget http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $ tar xzf
> http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $
> tomcat-x.y.z/bin/startup.sh
> 
> Woot!
> 
> Separated --------- $ wget http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz 
> $ tar xzf http://host/path/to/tomcat-x.y.z.tar.gz $ mkdir -p
> my-tomcat-base/conf $ mkdir -p my-tomcat-base/log $ mkdir -p
> my-tomcat-base/work $ mkdir -p my-tomcat-base/temp $ mkdir -p
> my-tomcat-base/webapps $ cp tomcat-x.y.z/conf/server.xml
> my-tomcat-base/conf $ cp tomcat-x.y.z/conf/web.xml
> my-tomcat-base/conf (the above step may not actually be necessary) 
> $ cp tomcat-x.y.z/webapps/ROOT my-tomcat-base/webapps $ export
> CATALINA_HOME=`pwd`/tomcat-x.y.z $ export
> CATALINA_BASE=`pwd`/my-tomcat-base $ $CATALINA_HOME/bin/startup.sh
> 
> Done.
> 

This is not so bad for a person used to the command line, but getting
a developer on any platform to do this is going to be a challenge.

If that developer is only familiar with Windows or the Macintosh at a
user level, you've placed an almost insurmountable burden in getting
Tomcat to run.

> So, that's not all that complicated when you think about it, but
> to ask someone who knows nothing about a command-line, working 
> effectively in an operating system, etc. and only knows about 
> programming in Java -- maybe only servlet programming in Java --
> to configure the server in the split case is confusing as all
> hell.
> 

+1

> Anyone downloading a ZIP or tar archive containing a Tomcat 
> installation would be confused if the archive contained not one
> but two top-level directories. Also, it would overwrite your 
> split-configuration if you unpacked that archive in the same
> directory as when you first started.
> 
> An installer program would have to explain what in the world the
> split configuration was. Have you ever tried to tell someone how to
> set up their email? POP versus IMAP? Most users have absolutely no
> idea what that is, and mail programs give no clue as to which one
> to choose. The same would be true of CATALINA_HOME versus
> CATALINA_BASE. (Besides, I truly doubt that any expert system
> administrators are using the Tomcat Windows Installer to
> install/upgrade their systems. Maybe I'm wrong, but then again I
> can't imagine running a Windows server in production. I value my
> sleep and prefer to build new things instead of holding together
> configurations with chewing gum and duct tape. Oh, and rebooting
> all the time.)
> 

I (sadly) run a few Windows servers in production. I've not tried
CATALINA_HOME / CATALINA_BASE in conjunction with the service install,
since those systems are quite static. However, even updating Java on
those systems is a bit of a pain.

Rebooting is also not nice for reliability / availability numbers.

> Anyhow, we can debate this all you want, but I will be -0 or even
> -1 to a default split-configuration of Tomcat unless someone has a
> really good idea for how to make it make sense to anyone on their
> first-touch.
> 

If I was a voting member, I would definitely be -1 for this change. It
makes the default use case (get up and running quickly) much more
difficult, and provides no advantage for those people who do make use
of CATALINA_HOME / CATALINA_BASE.

Maybe a step-by-step Wiki article is in order.

> -chris

. . . just my (put support hat on) two cents worth
/mde/
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