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From "Leon Rosenberg" <>
Subject Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Date Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:39:36 GMT
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:42 PM, André Warnier <> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> [...]
>> I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications?
>> Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects,
>> starting with
>> log4j as the most prominent.
> With utmost respect, Leon, but this is Off-Topic.
> (and even more so is you next post)

yes, it is, it was a reply to an off-topic post by david :-) but it's
still OT, so please accept my apologies.

> In my original post (and I apologise if this was not clear enough), I am
> specifically trying to speak for the sysadmin / average Tomcat user, and
> appealing to experts (such as you probably), to help make it simpler for
> these people to use and configure Tomcat. Please.

well our (100 employees company with about 20 tomcats in production
environment and many thousands of users online just as we speak)
admins are well able to configure tomcat logging as they wish (mainly
by using log4j configs we (developers) create and
redirecting them to the syslog (an appender in log4j writing to syslog).
They are no java experts and actually have no java or development
background, but with some time invested in googling or asking people
on lists / irc, they manage their tasks.

> I have no doubt that for experts, the logging as it is now is probably
> clear, effective, efficient, flexible and everything you would ask for.
> log4j is a beautiful package, but it is a monster, requiring deep Java
> knowledge, and even so, many hours of dedicated work to dominate.
> From the look of it, Commons Logging is a similar piece of cake.

not really. you need about 15 minutes to start using log4j. Of course
deep understanding and tuned configuration will require more time.

> No doubt that for someone who mainly does Java programming for a living, it
> is worth the effort.
> But many (the majority ?) of Tomcat users and administrators do not have
> that time, at least not for that package alone, when they simultaneously
> have to learn a little bit of many other packages.
> That does not mean that they don't like Tomcat, at least not yet.
> Or else, shall we say up front that Tomcat is a development tool, to be used
> exclusively by Java and Tomcat programming specialists, and not in
> production environments ?

I would doubt that the majority of tomcat users (i.e. java developers)
can't use logging. Its one of the first thing you need to learn on the
way to become professional java developer.
As for administrators, they (at least those who understand their
profession) are used to read docs and tomcat logging is well
documented. Besides, why would they be interested in tomcat logs, it
just works and ogs are empty in production environment (at least they
should be  :-)))


P.S. the time you invested in this thread would probably be sufficient
to learn to use log4j ;-)

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