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Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 13:33:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Struts vs JSF (poll?)
From: "Frank W. Zammetti" <fzlists@omnytex.com>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <users@tomcat.apache.org>
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On Tue, August 26, 2008 1:09 pm, David Whitehurst wrote:
-snip-
> But, at the same time I think
> development managers and architects need to choose the best framework
> and then tell the newly hired developers that this is what we're
> using.  You, the developer, either accept the choice or not.  We can't
> all be chiefs.

I'm in the architect/manager boat myself these days, so I'd be crazy to
*not* agree :)  I've seen though what happens when you play the "ivory
tower" game and just come down the hill with the stone tablets that say
"this is what we're doing".  Everyone has to have a say IMO... even if
some of those opinions don't carry as much weight as others (having your
opinion carry more weight is one of the perks of moving up the ladder
after all).

But at the end of the day, sure, it's us at the top that have to make the
decisions and be responsible for them however they turn out, and anyone
that doesn't want to be onboard can go disagree with someone elsewhere.

> And, if it's JSF, I'm firing the first one that tells me that Struts
> is better.  I think like the businessman now.  We're all here to write
> software and once the architecture is chosen, "debate's over boys!".

I would hope you wouldn't fire them JUST for disagreeing :)  So long as
they can disagree and still abide by the decision I can live with it.

> Struts2 for me.  I had to vote, LOL :-)

Sure... and I have no doubt it does the job nicely for you.

> David Whitehurst

Frank

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Author of "Practical Dojo Projects"
  abd "Practical DWR 2 Projects"
  and "Practical JavaScript, DOM Scripting and Ajax Projects"
  and "Practical Ajax Projects With Java Technology"
  (For info: apress.com/book/search?searchterm=zammetti&act=search)
My "look ma, I have a blog too!" blog: zammetti.com/blog

On Tue, August 26, 2008 1:09 pm, David Whitehurst wrote:
> Frank:
>
> I'm an AppFuse fan and while Struts 2 and JSF are an option, I've
> recently seen two solid applications using Spring Web Flow.  I haven't
> used Web Flow for anything production yet.  And, while this was the
> "this" vs. "that" discussion, I do agree that you should encourage
> developers to make up their own mind.  But, at the same time I think
> development managers and architects need to choose the best framework
> and then tell the newly hired developers that this is what we're
> using.  You, the developer, either accept the choice or not.  We can't
> all be chiefs.
>
> And, if it's JSF, I'm firing the first one that tells me that Struts
> is better.  I think like the businessman now.  We're all here to write
> software and once the architecture is chosen, "debate's over boys!".
>
> Struts2 for me.  I had to vote, LOL :-)
>
> David Whitehurst
>
> On 8/26/08, Frank W. Zammetti <fzlists@omnytex.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, August 26, 2008 12:33 pm, Christopher Schultz wrote:
>> > With respect to Frank's comments, S2 specifically encourages you to
>> > separate your own code from the framework, so that you can even
>> > implement your logic as framework-agnostic controllers that are simply
>> > auto-filled by the framework. Unit testing couldn't be easier: you
>> don't
>> > even need to worry about the servlet API because S2 completely hides
>> it
>> > from you (even for things like session attributes).
>>
>> I think that *can* be true... but my observation is that most developers
>> start getting so many marker interfaces and interceptors into the mix,
>> and
>> some start to tie you to the servlet API, that all of a sudden you're in
>> the same "mock" boat as you are otherwise... I've always thought the S2
>> claim that Actions are POJOs, while *technically* true (or at least,
>> *can*
>> be technically true) is a little bit of a red herring.
>>
>> However, I'll be fair and admit I haven't done a full-scale S2 project
>> in
>> a real-world environment, so this conclusion is based on a somewhat
>> limited data set.  I don't think the situation is any worse than any
>> other
>> framework though.
>>
>> > I would encourage you guys to take a deeper look into these frameworks
>> > (I know nothing about JSF... I'm sure there's some great stuff in
>> there,
>> > too)... I think you'll see that frameworks do actually provide useful
>> > services and direction, and aren't just useless plumbing and
>> > configuration.
>>
>> I'm very familiar with S1, I've been using it for years and have
>> released
>> a number of extensions to it over that period.  I'm also pretty familiar
>> with S2 (I did tech review on Ian's "Practical" book and have put one or
>> two plugins out there in the wild).  I just find S1 doesn't buy me much
>> any more, and in fact gets in the way sometimes for the type of
>> development I do, and I find S2 to be overly complicated in many
>> situations.
>>
>> It's just one man's opinion of course, and I too encourage each person
>> to
>> examine these frameworks on their individual merits and make up your own
>> mind for your specific situation.  I'm certainly not going to slam
>> anyone
>> that looks at Struts or JSF and concludes it's right for them... well,
>> maybe I would in the case of JSF :)
>>
>> > - -chris
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> --
>> Frank W. Zammetti
>> Author of "Practical Dojo Projects"
>>  abd "Practical DWR 2 Projects"
>>  and "Practical JavaScript, DOM Scripting and Ajax Projects"
>>  and "Practical Ajax Projects With Java Technology"
>>  (For info: apress.com/book/search?searchterm=zammetti&act=search)
>> My "look ma, I have a blog too!" blog: zammetti.com/blog
>>
>>
>>
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