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From "Frank W. Zammetti" <>
Subject Re: Seeking advice as to what platform/framework to use for developing a tourism/tourist attractions web site
Date Fri, 02 May 2008 13:38:28 GMT
I actually agree with Lyallex quite strongly, I found very little value 
in *any* of the frameworks out there today, and in fact I'm starting to 
believe most of them are counterproductive.

However, that's not to say I think plain servlets and JSPs is the 
absolute best answer either... since Ajax is one of the listed 
requirements I would highly suggest looking at DWR.  I've found that 
DWR, plus a good widget library on the client (ExtJS was my choice until 
the recent licensing change) was all you need nowadays.  I tend to use 
bits and pieces of Spring too, mostly Spring JDBC because I believe 
straight JDBC is the right answer and Spring JDBC makes that better, but 
I'll pick and choose other pieces as the needs come up.

But I think DWR is the key.  If you're developing a modern RIA, I don't 
believe there is currently a better option.  The really great thing 
about it is that it leads you quite naturally down a certain 
architectural path: POJOs on the server, a simple RPC-like mid-tier 
design, simple, logical coding on the front-end, etc.

I've been involved in a massively complex project at work the past two 
years, one of the biggest success stories in my company's history 
actually... we started off using Dojo for Ajax and Struts on the 
server-side... that worked reasonably well... however, for the last 6-9 
months we've been developing all the new capabilities in the application 
with DWR replacing both of those, and it's a world of difference.  New 
developers, some of which have little to no experience in Java web 
development, are able to pick it up so much quicker, it's so much easier 
to get things done initially, and troubleshooting is much easier because 
there's simply less moving parts, and it simply *feels* simpler.  We've 
been able to deal with changing requirements quickly and easily.  Being 
able to see the two approaches in the same application really makes it 
obvious which is better and why.

In fact, most of the newest functionality is done in what I consider the 
holy grail of approaches: a single JSP design.  There's no longer this 
"page-request-response-new page" cycle, it simply isn't necessary.  Yes, 
you have to fully buy into this whole RIA thing, and you have to be 
comfortable doing a lot in Javascript, but if you are I think this is 
nearly a perfect way to do things.

That's just my opinion of course, I know many people don't agree.  All I 
can say is I've got a ton of real-world experience with non-trivial 
enterprise-class applications that support it.


P.S. - Is that your real name by the way Layallex?  If so, I've never 
heard it before, but it's pretty cool!)

Frank W. Zammetti
Author of "Practical DWR 2 Projects"
   and "Practical JavaScript, DOM Scripting and Ajax Projects"
   and "Practical Ajax Projects With Java Technology"
   for info:
Java Web Parts -
  Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
My "only partially serious" blog:

Lyallex wrote:
> Greetings
> I guess given the lack of replies that most think this is too OT for
> this list, well I suppose it is but I couldn't resist answering.
> "Don't Do It"
> That is, don't use any framework at all.
> Download Tomcat and the relevant J2EE API documentation bundle, then
> goto the MySQL site and get the driver
> then go and get all sorts of stuff. Finally
> read (maybe this
> should be the other way around)
> This really is all you need. learning a framework is an overhead you
> can do without if you are getting into J2EE.
> I used to use Struts and JSF and Castor and lot's of other stuff but I
> found I was spending more time learning how to configure the framework
> than I was developing. My latest site has most of what you mention and
> not a framework in site.
> Follow the patterns, write cohesive POJOs and hide the business logic
> behind facades. Use the commons stuff, it works, it's free and it's
> documented (to a degree). I even used to eschew taglibs but I'm a
> convert now so use them where you can.
> NEVER put business logic anywhere other than in POJOs (or EJBs if you
> must) and never do anything other than rendering in jsp's.
> Use css, everywhere, all the time ... IE 6 is broken but most of the
> latest browsers are pretty good these days IMHO.
> <div> good, <table> bad (well not quite).
> Stick to this and you will be writing websites and earning money for
> the rest of your working life while others struggle to get heir head
> around the latest bloated XML nightmare config, docubabble latest
> greatest framework.
> Madness ? perhaps, but I spend my time learning the Java/J2EE APIs
> rather than reading framework documentation and I am never out of
> work.
> <Lights blue touchpaper and retires>
> Good Luck
> Lyallex
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 11:01 AM, qm westview <> wrote:
>>  *Hi there,* *I am an application programmer (Java, PHP) and almost new to
>>  web development. I am currently investigating as to what is the most
>>  appropriate/applicable open source platform/framework to develop a web site
>>  (simple to start but more comprehensive into the future) for tourism or
>>  tourist attractions. The following lists the basic support requirements
>>  (mainly multimedia, interactivity and future proof) * *1.      XHTML,
>>  JavaScript, Ajax* *2.      Multimedia – images, slides show, music, videos*
>>  *3.      Simple blogging facility * *4.      Community, Feedbacks * *5.
>>  Emailing for registered users (regular news release)* *6.      Database
>>  (mySQL or similar)* *7.      Search ability (text based)* *8.      Shopping
>>  facility (online, gift etc)* *9.      Management facility* *I have seen some
>>  CMS type of open system, such as Xoops, Lenya, Daisy, etc. But I do not have
>>  enough knowledge to make any choice decision. Just wondered if any
>>  experienced people here could help me or shed some lights please. * *I am a
>>  techi person and wouldn't mind the complicity of technology so long as the
>>  job can be done efficiently and effectively and low cost.* *Many thanks in
>>  advance,* *Mark*
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