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From james Folsom <jfol...@techemail.com>
Subject RE: Re OT: Java/JSP vs C#/.NET
Date Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:33:04 GMT
Sorry about the previous grammatical errors.
I use Eclipse, Ant, XDoclet, JBoss-Tomcat, and Struts. I am really not a front-end GUI person.
I wouldn't say JSF or editors are for lazy people. Lazy people for me are people who are unwilling
to learn new things. Like someone who has never done their homework to find out what is out
there but instead continues to do things the easy way. I have an instructor (I am an undergrad)
who swears the best language for web development is PERL. Go figure.

I have worked with C# on several projects, and it's not all bad. But for the reasons stated
previously, I will continue to use Java. Although, I would agree with what you said about
XML + XSLT. I think that is a smart move. Have you ever used Cocoon?

If you find good tools for JSF please post them to the list. From the few seconds I looked
at it, I thought it looked like it might have some potential. I especially like the idea of
being able to simulate heavy-weight clients inside a browser. I have been meaning to look
into the spec, I just haven't had time. Unfortunately some of us have to go to COBOL class.
:(




--- Nguyen Anh Tuan <nguyenanhtuan@yahoo.com> wrote:
>A good developer never thinks much about tools.
>Prejudice is bad for innovation. It depends on
>purposes of the applications and working conditions to
>choose tools to be used.
>
>--- "David C. Rogers" <dave@excira.com> wrote:
>> I think im pretty much done with JSP...tags and all.
>> I think the future (the
>> now) is XML/XSLT/CSS for the presentation. Do the
>> presentation logic in java
>> and stuff the results in a DOM and let XSLT render
>> it. Yea XSLT is hard to
>> learn but its good on reuse so once you have bult a
>> widget you dont  have to
>> do it again.
>> 
>> Any one know about good Java Server Faces tools for
>> the "lazy" among
>> us java developers? or is JSF too late?
>> 
>> Borland C#?? How about Eclipse? Now that IDE rocks.
>> 
>> I think $MS is going to have a hell of a time
>> competing with the open source
>> community in the medium (5 year) term. Open Office
>> is
>> looking really good these days.
>> 
>> Sun, IBM, and others sell hardware and services and
>> so are investing big
>> time in java and open source. MS sells? xbox
>> hardware? professional
>> services?
>> 
>> 
>> Java+XML+XSLT i say.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: james Folsom [mailto:jfolsom@techemail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 6:58 PM
>> To: Tomcat Users List
>> Subject: Re: Re OT: Java/JSP vs C#/.NET
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Maybe I'm a little biased, but I don't see how it's
>> even an issue. In order
>> for there to actually be some sort of debate,
>> Microsoft .NET would have to
>> be at least somewhat comparable to Java. They aren't
>> even close.
>> 
>> People who use C# use it because they are lazy. The
>> thing about doing J2EE
>> is that you actually have to know something about
>> computers to use it; it's
>> not exactly point and click. So far the only valid
>> argument I have heard in
>> favor of .NET is that it is easy. If you want to be
>> a cheeseball Microsoft
>> programmer that just copies and pastes VB code then
>> you probably want to use
>> .NET.
>> 
>> I as far as I am concerned Java is the only decent
>> development platform
>> business apps. Let's Compare The two on the basis of
>> features and
>> flexibility.
>> 
>> Platform Independence:
>> Java 5 C# 0.
>> 
>> Runtime Environment w/ JIT:
>> 
>> Java 1 C# 1
>> 
>> Object-Oriented:
>> 
>> Java 1 C# 1
>> 
>> Support for web services:
>> 
>> Java 1 C# 1
>> 
>> Aspect-Oriented:
>> 
>> Java 5 C# 0
>> 
>> Scalable:
>> 
>> Java 5 C# 0
>> 
>> Solid(see Flyweight Pattern) Web Architecture for
>> developing dynamic HTML:
>> 
>> Java 5 C# 0
>> 
>> Vendor neutral:
>> 
>> Java 5 C# 0
>> 
>> Distributed object model (a.k.a. EJB):
>> 
>> Java 5 C# 0
>> 
>> Open-source support:
>> 
>> Java 5 C# 0
>> 
>> Standards managed by a community process vs. no
>> standards managed by a
>> company who has consistently proven that they have
>> neither ethics nor
>> scruples:
>> 
>> Java 20 C# 0
>> 
>> As you can see, the choice is clear. .NET is nothing
>> more than Microsoft
>> vapor-ware. Three years ago, everyone was saying
>> that DCOM was going to be
>> the next big thing, now you can't even get Microsoft
>> to support it anymore.
>> Microsoft's game is selling books and development
>> tools. In five years,
>> there will probably be some
>> brand-spankin'-new-latest-greatest-technology
>> coming out of Seattle and all the spin-doctors will
>> pump the press and try
>> to convince you that   .NET is obsolete and you need
>> to spend a few hundred
>> thousand dollars on development tools, operating
>> systems, and training. Five
>> years from now......
>> You'll can be rushing to try and keep up with the
>> latest crap (and it is
>> crap) Bill is feeding you. I'd rather not. I'll
>> stick with Java. I hope you
>> will do the same.
>> 
>> As long as there are still people in this industry
>> who actually know what
>> the hell they are doing, Java will still be here. If
>> you can chart the
>> proliferation of ignorance and contrast it with the
>> proliferation of
>> Microsoft, you can see that the lines move in
>> perfect parallel.
>> 
>> 
>> --- Vic Cekvenich <cekvenich_vic@baseBeans.com>
>> wrote:
>> >It's fun to complain sometimes.
>> >
>> >Here is more:
>>
>>http://www.onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2003/07/23/java_qa.html
>> >It seems that JCP and Vendors are leaving a lot of
>> developers behind.
>> >I can download Borland C# for free, more choices
>> are better for developers:
>>
>>http://borland.com/products/downloads/download_csharpbuilder.html#
>> >C# is ECMA standard of course and you can do MVC w/
>> Mav-Net for example.
>> >
>> >.V
>> >
>> >Shawn Zernik wrote:
>> >
>> >> Lance:
>> >>
>> >> 100% Multi-Platform Support: Microsoft doesn't
>> have it.
>> >>
>> >> Shawn Zernik
>> >> Internetwork Consulting
>> >> www.internetworkconsulting.net
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Xingqun Jiang [mailto:xj22@cornell.edu]
>> >> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 4:57 PM
>> >> To: Tomcat Users List
>> >> Subject: Java/JSP vs C#/.NET
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >> I am a pure java supporter. I don't like C# or
>> .Net because of
>> Microsoft's
>> >> monopolization (sorry, kind of prejudice).
>> However, I notice that more
>> and
>> >> more people pick up C#/.NET due to their new
>> advantages. I also heard
>> that
>> >> C# is much faster than Java. My concern is, can
>> Java/JSP still be
>> >> competitive to Microsoft's products? I don't like
>> to see java be beaten
>> by
>> >> Microsoft since it borrowed so many ideas from
>> java to make up the
>> so-called
>> >> "C#".
>> 
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
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