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From "Michael Nicholson" <>
Subject Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
Date Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:59:04 GMT
And there is the final answer... or at least the bottom line.  In general in
life, you get what you pay for.  We're lucky... with Tomcat we get a WHOLE
LOT MORE.  I think it took me three or four days to get tomcat running jsps
and servlets, mainly because the guy in charge of our system had a JDK 1.3
running, and things weren't happy.  I don't know if he had done something
strange or what, but once I installed a JDK 1.4 and pointed tomcat at it, it
ran fine.  Mind you, I was also doing this while learning about JDKs, jsps,
servlets, and java, so I didn't put ALL of my effort into it.

And my background is "technical."  I spent the last two years as an
assistant fencing coach, but before that I spent a little bit of time using
excel and visual basic for applications (which has complete documentation,
might I add!  And may I also add, I hope to NEVER USE IT AGAIN.  I didn't
like VBA very much...:))  Then I started using Access and VBA, and then when
we wanted to take it online, I started learning Java, jsps, tomcat, etc.

And yes, every now and then I wish there were a better indexed, nicely
formatted set of documentation.  I dwell on that for a good 15 seconds, open
up google, search the archives, mess around trying things, ask questions,
and before long, whatever didn't work, does.

I think the vast majority of us are happy with this.  If not, please send
your self address stamped envelope to the following address for a full

<SillyAddressTag id="foo" name="foo" value="Whatever silly address you want"

Oh well, and least all that undergraduate work in Chemistry is paying

In a whimsical mood,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hamilton, Andrew" <>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

You know what really bothers me about this whole thread:  Tomcat is free.
What right does anyone have to complain about free stuff?  That's like
complaining cause someone gave you free beer but it said Generic on the
label.  It might not go down as smoothly but the effect is the same.  I
setup Tomcat without problems in minutes.  But then again I read the docs.
It was a challenge to get through some of them but I managed to do it.  Me,
I only have 8 years of experience as a developer and systems admin.  All
that experience must be doing something to the guys brain like turning it to
mush.  I'm a serious advocate of open source in all its guises and I do
appreciate this list and the help I get from it.  Fortunately I don't have
to ask many questions because mostly I can search the archives and someone
has asked it before me and gotten the answer.  So for my part I want to
thank you all.



-----Original Message-----
From: Turner, John []
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:33 AM
To: 'Tomcat Users List'
Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !

You're forgetting that Tomcat is a reference implementation.  Nobody is
positioning it as a be-all, end-all commercial solution.

If you use JRUN, you are tied to Macromedia forever.  You automatically lose
portability, you automatically lose customer base because there are many
tech-savvy customers out there who are very aware that the same
functionality can be had for free, you automatically lose the ability to
adapt the product to your needs, and you automatically put the
responsibility for the security of your company's (and your customers')
intellectual property and proprietary information into the hands of a
third-party company that a) has no fiduciary responsibility to you, your
customers, or your company (read Macromedia's EULA), and b) is driven solely
by profit.  Talk about a house of cards.

So, if you'd like to abdicate all of that responsibility in return for a
nicely bound paperback book with icons and a table of contents, and a nice
installer that does things to your system in a fashion that prevents you
from ever finding out exactly what it did and why, then by all means
purchase JRUN or any other product.  Don't make the bogus jump from that
decision process to a decision process that leads you to believe that JRUN
is better just because it has documentation.

Your 20 years of technical experience sure hasn't helped you with your
reasoning, logic, and deduction skills.  Perhaps a Critical Thinking class
at the local community college would be beneficial.

BTW, if you'd like to pay me $1000 (same price as JRUN), I'll write the best
documentation you've ever seen, and even put it into a nice little book for
you.  But then, that would be proving how ridiculous your posts, reasoning,
and assumptions are, and I have a feeling you're not that dumb.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike DiChiappari []
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:37 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: RE: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> Notice that I didn't ask a question JOEL BERGMAN (are you a Jakarta
> developer).  I simply chimed in when someone else expressed
> dissatisfaction with this list.  I have been disappointed and
> frustrated by the **** that is called documentation.  I stopped
> trying to get tomcat to work properly over a year ago.  Recently I
> looked into it again, and noticed little to no improvement.
> Note that my background is technical, with over twenty years of
> building commercial quality software.  I don't believe in a lot of
> pie-in-the-sky ideals in terms of software development.  I rate
> software on three important criteria: does it do what it is intended,
> can it be used easily, and is it maintainable.
> In terms of tomcat, I give it a grade of incomplete on all three of
> the above.  I can not tell if it does what its supposed to because I
> can't get it to work with a reasonable amount of effort.
> Here if my contribution to Jarkata and people looking for a low cost
> Java solution.  Use JRUN (discalimer: I am not affiliated with
> Macromedia in any way).  It is under $1000 and includes a full J2EE
> implementation (JSP, servlets, EJB).  It looks like the installer
> does all the stuff that mod_jk, mod_jk2, and mod_web are supposed to
> (if anyone could get them to work).  A development version is
> available for free.
> Mike
> >  > -----Original Message-----
> >>  From: Mike DiChiappari []
> >>  Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:37 PM
> >>  To: Tomcat Users List
> >>  Subject: Re: I don´t understand the objective of this open list !
> >>
> >>
> >>  I know the reason for this list - at least as it applies
> to Jakarta.
> >>  It is meant to address the complete lack of adequate documentation
> >>  for tomcat.
> >
> >Are you volunteering to write some, Mike DiChiappari?  That
> is how things
> >get done: someone DOES them.
> >
> >If you don't know enough, you could skim the mailing list looking for
> >questions, finding out when they were answered to the questioner's
> >satisfaction, and using that as your source material.
> >
> >Or do you just want answers to YOUR questions?
> >
> > --- Noel
> >
> >
> >--
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