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From "J. Eric Smith" <esm...@digitalforge.com>
Subject RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
Date Wed, 28 Nov 2001 16:52:38 GMT
Ken,

I couldn't have said it better.  Our situations appear to be identical
with regards to the client:  small start with potential for huge growth.
We've used TC3x in the past with mixed results, usually poor performance
being the biggest gripe, and I've never been fond of the convoluted
config issues between TC3x, mod_jk, and Apache.  I'd spec Resin before
I'd go back to TC3x.

The Apache group should re-examine what constitutes production ready
releases.  If Java junkies want something to play with, TC4 seems to be
just the thing for them.  But for sysadmins and sysengineers, it means
hours of frustration trying to get something to work, only to find out
in the forums that "it'll be fixed soon/that's not in this
release/function not yet implemented/use an older module/the
documentation isn't done/the docs are incorrect".

I don't feel that this is asking a lot, even for a "free" project such
as this.  TC4 should not have been taken out of beta without the ENTIRE
project being up to snuff.  That includes dependent modules like
mod_webapp AS WELL AS the documentation on TC4 and mod_webapp.  After
all, all the examples say use mod_webapp, but the forum recommends
mod_jk because mod_webapp isn't stable/functional/documented enough.
One only has to look at this very mailing list to see that the vast
majority out there can't even get Tomcat/Apache to talk to one another
without major headaches.  It comprises about 70% of the posts here, so
it's not just me.

How do you expect someone to react who's used to Weblogic-levels of
documentation and finish?  And don't hand me the old "you get what you
pay for".  Apache webserver has proven that you don't have to pay a lot
to get a lot.  Why they abandoned that for TC4 is beyond me.

 
J. Eric Smith
esmith@digitalforge.com <mailto:esmith@digitalforge.com> 
 


-----Original Message-----
From: tomcat@nettwrek.com [mailto:tomcat@nettwrek.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:11 AM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?


Here's my company's dilemna, which I'm sure is very similar to Mr.
Smith's.  
Our production app is starting relatively small - 1 client with about
5,000 
dedicated users - but may grow into 500,000 within months.  I needed to
find a 
CHEAP solution that is robust and reliable enough to handle the load
until we 
can financially justify spending the money for a weblogic license or
two.  I 
was hoping and expecting TC4 to fill the slot.  So far, I'm grossly 
disappointed and have backed down to either TC3.3 or Resin.

Every point brought up by Mr. Smith should be looked at closely by the 
Jakarta/Tomcat development group.  How can TC4 be released as
"Production" with 
such poor and incomplete documentation??!!  Tomcat doesn't consist of
just the 
binaries, it's the whole package.  Don't be a Microsoft and push
something out 
the door before it's ready, it's only going to hurt the project.  I feel
I've 
wasted valuable time trying to get TC-4.0.1 working consistantly with
Apache- 1.3.22.  I was a huge fan of JServ and even TC3.2, but the
latest Tomcat 
release has left me with a bad taste in my mouth.  What's the point of
this 
project if Tomcat's only good for Development use?

I love you guys, but I'm frustrated and disappointed with this release.

-Ken

Quoting DONNIE HALE <DHALE@longaberger.com>:

> All those things may very well be true re: TC4. However, if you're 
> looking at "billion dollar revenues" and "24x7x265 for 50,000 users", 
> the time you're spending researching Tomcat would have paid for 
> WebLogic. Cough up the few grand per CPU for WebLogic and put yourself

> out of your misery. :)
> 
> Donnie
> 
> 
> >>> esmith@digitalforge.com 11/28/01 10:34AM >>>
> I'd love to be able to wait around for TC4 to get "stable", but I have

> to make a decision within a week or so, and I don't think anything 
> major is going to happen in that timeframe.
> 
> I've heard the same thing many places:  TC is being used for small 
> scale stuff.  I need something that's going to show scalability in a 
> big way,
> as this is going to start out very, very tiny and may ultimately grow
> to
> something huge (think billion dollar revenues and you know what I
> mean).
> TC may be fine to play with right now, but can I trust it to something
> that's got to run 24x7x365 for 50,000 users a year from now?  If
> mod_webapp is the best they can do, then the Apache group has a LOT of
> work to do.
> 
> Further, I'd like to comment on what "stable" ought to mean.  For 
> Tomcat, stable apparently means that if you can get it to work, it 
> will usually work somewhat okay.  Gee, I'd hate to see what the
> "development"
> stuff means.  Stable should mean "production ready".  I mean
> Apache-like
> stablity, with good docs and modules that actually function as
> advertised.  Mod_webapp has left an awful taste in my mouth after
> working with REAL "production-ready" connector modules like
> mod_weblogic.  If the whole project was listed in "beta" status, I'd
> be
> more forgiving, but the current state is not anywhere near what I'd
> call
> "production".  Maybe TC3x is, but not TC4, not if you plan to attach
> it
> to a real webserver (use mod_jk?  Sure, where are the docs?  OHH!  In
> the TC3x docs!  Sure, THAT'S the logical place, right?  And I'm sure
> it's been thoroughly tested, too).  
> 
> Read the TC4 docs and FAQ's and you'll find numerous references that 
> indicate some function isn't yet implemented, or this doesn't work 
> yet, or that'll be fixed sometime soon.  That is intolerable for real
> business work.  TC4 should not be listed as production ready in its
> current state.  It's my opinion, and it may be wrong, but if someone
> is
> using TC4 and mod_webapp in a mission critical situation, I'd love to
> hear from them, because thus far I've heard nothing to convince me
> otherwise.
> 
>  
> J. Eric Smith
> esmith@digitalforge.com <mailto:esmith@digitalforge.com>
>  
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alec Bickerton [mailto:abickerton@opaltelecom.co.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:16 AM
> To: Tomcat User list
> Subject: RE: mod_webapp/Tomcat4 ready for production level stuff?
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I currently work in an ISP, we are using Tomcat exclusively to handle 
> ALL our JSP / Servlet & EJB apps, we have never seen an outage due to 
> tomcat, and the performace has never given us reason to be concerned.
> TC4 is currently being used to provide B2B services to clients on a
> fairly small scale, however the server loads indicate that scaling
> would
> not present any significant problems.
> 
> (No complaints yet)
> 
> The TC4 architecture seems to be more flexible than previous releases.
> 
> However,
> 
> I have been migrating some of our systems to tomcat4 from tc3 and have

> come across a few teething problems. I'm sure these will be worked out

> in few maintenance releases, It's a case of suck it and see.
> 
> 28/11/2001 14:47:26, "Carl Boudreau" <carl.boudreau@notiva.com> wrote:
> 
> >Hello,
> >	I'm involved in developing a large B2B web application.  I'd
> like to
> >know what you end up doing, Web logic's price seems to be way to high
> 
> >to ask a customer to purchase it.  We are looking at open source too.
> >
> >Carl
> >
> >
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> 
> 
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