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From (Saurabh Shukla)
Subject RE: List traffic et al
Date Fri, 06 Jul 2001 10:38:44 GMT

I TOTALLY agree with this, deviding will not be helpful.

Rather let all of us try to reduce volume(both in size and number), it does
not require much effort.

Lets just try to follow the following.

- Please go through the archives and docs before posting a question. The
members should also refrain from answering questions which are there in the
docs, please refer the docs would be
the best reply.

- Do not post messages in non text format such as HTML, Doc or RTF.

- Do not post attachments to the list (such as vCards, ms-tnef etc.)

- Use a meaningful subject.  A single word like ``Help!'' doesn't help
in understanding the nature of the problem, and may be skipped by a
person who may actually have been able to help you. It also will be helpful
ignoring the issues in whcih an individual is not interested.

- Change the subject if you're changing the content of a thread drastically.

- Remove extras when quoting.  If the quoted message contained a
standard list trailer or a long signature, do remove it in your

- Give enough information to help your reader to help you if you're
posting about a problem.  Statements like, ``My Apache doesn't work''
are useless since they give no description of the problem, no idea
about the methods you tried to identify the problem, and no
information (logs, etc) which could help in diagnosing the problem.
Give enough information (how did you set it up, what did you do to
test it, what was the exact output, what did the logs contain, what
versions of software/hardware were you using, etc) to enable remote

- Research your facts before you post solutions to the list.  If
you're not sure of the solution to a problem, either do not post, or
first make sure of all the steps and then post.  If you cannot make
sure, state very clearly in the message that you're not sure and that
the user is trying your solution at his/her own risk.  No solution is
preferable to a wrong solution, which may cause immense damage.

For more info please read.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Robson []
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: List traffic et al

  I've been on the list about eight months and I'm not sure
I agree that splitting it will alleviate the volume problem.
I'm rather afraid that I would end up subscribed to 2 or 3
high volume lists rather than one. I imagine that we would
see a lot of multiple posts across the lists.

Previous suggestions for how the list could be split seem to me to fall into
three categories
1) By platform
2) By competence (i.e. newbie list, advanced user list)
3) By category of problem

Splitting the list on basis of platform strikes me as little perverse
for a java based technology. However I recognise there are
substantive issues because different platform = different web server.
And I guess it would mean no more 'out of environment space'
and 'how do i run tomcat as a service' posts but I already manage to filter
most of these out anyway. My main concern would be that I'd be effectively
cutting off a valuable section of the tomcat community. Whose to say
the person capable and willing to solve my problem isn't running NT?
And conversly why should i only post solutions to people who happen
to be running the same OS as me?

Problem with dividing on competence is that it is not clear how attractive
a newbie list would be. Would people subscribe to a list made up of
people  who by definition are unlikely to know the answer to your question?
Also aren't we trying to foster a strong community of tomcat/servlet
developers. We would hardly be doing that by cutting newbies off
from the 'experts'. After all what is going to happen? Newbies will post
to their list, wait , not get an answer and repost to the advanced users
list. Not a very encouraging introduction to tomcat.

Dividing by category of problem seems to me the suggestion with the
most merit. However here again I'm not convinced. I just think it would be
incredibly difficult to get the right categories. Problems by their nature
tend to cut across such neat boundaries. And half the time you don't
know what category your problem fits into; that's why you have a problem.
Suppose I'm trying to set up SSL. Potentially this is going to fall into
all three of the categories that Sam has suggested. So again I think
we are going to get multiple redundant posts and I think we completly
cloud the issue of where to look for help.

So what is to be done. It seems to me that good documentation projects
(such as the tomcat book at sourceforge) offer the best hope for cutting
the volume on this list. I know there is a big problem people posting
problems which have been dealt with many, many times (sometimes
in the same day!). I just don't know what  you do about it other than
regular reminders to check the archives before posting. And it is fairly
clear that doesn't work.

Last point: This list has saved my bacon a couple of times in the last
eight months. As irritating as the high volume can be I think it is
still very valuable in its current form.


On Fri, 06 Jul 2001, you wrote:
> I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that I have to wade through all
> these messages "for the good of the list". As I said, I have no experience
> with Tomcat on Windows, so I'm not interested in Windows specific issues
> can I help to solve them. Splitting along platform lines should retain a
> relatively good mix of newbies and experienced developers in each list, so
> don't see the problem you are pointing out.
> In any event, even if the list is split on basic vs. advanced topics,
> advanced users who wanted to help the community could subscribe to all
> lists. I don't think it's necessarily "bad" to want to subscribe only to
> lists you feel you can learn from. I've been lurking and posting for about
> months now and it seems that the same basic group of people answer a
> majority of the questions. I used to answer a lot more than I do now, but
> I'll admit that I get pretty frustrated answering the same questions over
> and over when I know the answers can be easily found in the archive. Is it
> selfish or bad of me to skip over questions I used to answer, or should
> responsibility be placed on the person asking the question? (rhetorical,
> because there's no way to control whether or not people actually search
> archives before posting...)
> A digest version is already available for this list.
> --jeff
> > From: Dmitri Colebatch <>
> > Reply-To:
> > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:03:14 +1000
> > To:, Jeff Kilbride <>
> > Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >
> > I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is
going to
> > be interested in their own little niche.  I for instance learn nothing
> > answering many questions that I answer, but I do learn things from
> > other answers.  If the list was split, I would (potentially) have the
> > to only see the messages that I would learn from.  This disadvantages
> > people on the list.  And this is going to occur at all levels.  Even
> > newbies should be capable of answering some questions that they have
> > dealt with the day before.
> >
> > If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option.  The JBoss
> > has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to receive that in
> > digest mode quite happily.
> >
> > anyway, my 2c
> >
> > cheesr
> > dim
> >
> >
> > On Fri,  6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote:
> >> Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would
> >> certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix
> >> exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I
> >> have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows
> >> feel the same way about Unix related questions.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --jeff
> >>
> >>> From: "Hemant Singh" <>
> >>> Organization: Supportscape Inc.
> >>> Reply-To:
> >>> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530
> >>> To: <>
> >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >>>
> >>> HI:
> >>> Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting
> >>> with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of
> >>> group and how this can be acheived.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Hemant
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Milt Epstein" <>
> >>> To: <>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote:
> >>>>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely
> >>>>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to
> >>>>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list
as a
> >>>>> whole:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects
> >>>>> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues
> >>>>> 3.) Webserver integration issues
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people
> >>>>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm
> >>>>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list
> >>>>> 2 or 3 lists?  Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat
> >>>>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things,
> >>>>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to
> >>>>> me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry
> >>>>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to
> >>>>> work though all the posts....
> >>>>
> >>>> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
> >>>> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the
> >>>> or three highest volume apache lists).  I even volunteered to take
> >>>> lead in doing this.  So I sent a note to the list owner explaining
> >>>> idea.  Unfortunately, I never heard anything back.  Without the list
> >>>> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
> >>>> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this.  So,
> >>>> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
> >>>> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
> >>>> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Milt Epstein
> >>>> Research Programmer
> >>>> Software/Systems Development Group
> >>>> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
> >>>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
> >>>>
> >

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