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Message-ID: <578603B1441B72419F1FAACD22361DFE0161D9F4@EMPLOYMAIL>
From: ceska@employon.com
To: taglibs-user@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:59:11 -0500 
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Hello-

Forgive my comments as they are not technical.  Just observations I have made on a few projects over the past couple months.

Since there are very few java programmers who are designers, and vice versa - there must be a comfortable zone where designers/developers can integrate their works without battles.  I have found that there is little place for a WYSIWYG design team outside of prototyping, this becomes even more evident as applications evolve.  In a recent project we migrated JSP 1.1 code and old ratty HTML code to jsp1.2/struts, with XHTML and CSS-P on the client side.  I have found that having good designers that write good XHTML code and use CSS have the foundation to understand the MVC approach - After all they are doing the same thing with the style and layout that java developers try to do with the model, view and controller.

All the java developers I work with understand the view layer, and all the designers understand how the model and controller fits into their design.  I think XHTML helps out a lot. And I have seen it.  I sit on both sides of the fence; I do some view design but mostly backend.  Some days I am in Jdeveloper some days I am in dreamweaver validating XHTML pages.  I have a lot of people like me on my team and it just works.  

If you are stuck with crummy designers that don't get the backend at all, giving them a set of tags to use won't help the situation.  Educating them will.  If they don't want to learn, send them back to the marketing department to work on the new web designers business cards.  Just because their designers doesn't mean they shouldn't understand the backend, and vice versa.  

Sorry for the long message.

-chris


-----Original Message-----
From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:net.reality@verizon.net] 
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs

Greetings,
                As a software developer I would like to delegate some of 
the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers, 
programmers etc.  The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl 
was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non 
java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like 
jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of 
wyswig web designers and other non java programmers.  What is the point 
of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the 
developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags 
to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers. 
All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience 
delgating developing using taglibs.


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