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From Lyndon Durham <net.real...@verizon.net>
Subject Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Date Tue, 04 Feb 2003 23:15:06 GMT
Your approach of designers design html and send files to developers 
seems to imply that it work well where designers and developers share 
intimate knowledge. What happens when there is less intimacy in terms of 
knowledge and designers and programmers are working remotely? For 
example the Athens 2004 Olympic project, could you see all or some of 
the web designers designing hundreds or thousands of html and devlopers 
having to add code via access to some central repository(like source 
safe) etc.
    As a developer I can tell you I dislike having to open up designers 
html especialy those who use WYSWIG tools. On the other insert jsp,jstl 
etc into html and send it back to designers leads to problems with 
keyboard happy designers who love to "tweak" their designs etc.

Felipe Schnack wrote:

>  XMLC seems nice, but what about performance? XML transformation
>probably is costly, compared to taglib use, isn't it?
>  Anyway, I see no problems about designers do their design with no
>dynamic content, and then send the HTML files to developers add tag
>calls.
>
>On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:24, Jerome Jacobsen wrote:
>  
>
>>What does Javadoc document?  Java.  I think it is too much to ask most page
>>designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
>>(primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps).  And then they'd need to
>>understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
>>Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility.  I agree
>>that making the page script free is a good step, however "programming" with
>>XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming.  To a degree
>>they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
>>in and things like whether <c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/> does a deep
>>copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
>>
>>With XMLC you separate the skill sets better.  The programmer doesn't need
>>to know the view.  The programmer takes the DOM and looks for XHTML IDs and
>>replaces/adds dynamic content to these nodes depending on the ID.  I really
>>don't know much more about it than that as I've never used it.  However if I
>>were to start a project where there was a requirement that non-programmer
>>page designers design the pages I would definitely look into something like
>>XMLC over JSP.
>>
>>That's just my opinion though.
>>
>>    
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Eric.Lewis@swissinfo.ch [mailto:Eric.Lewis@swissinfo.ch]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:01 PM
>>>To: taglibs-user@jakarta.apache.org
>>>Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
>>>
>>>
>>>I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in "JSTL In
>>>Action"),
>>>you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL
>>>(or whatever
>>>tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any
>>>JSP pages unless the first line reads
>>><%@ taglib prefix="scriptfree" uri="/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld" %>
>>>
>>>Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for
>>>the String
>>>Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point
>>>in creating
>>>custom tags yourself at all.
>>>
>>>I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer
>>>don't want
>>>to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers
>>>the objects, and the rest is their work :-)  But of course they
>>>need a good
>>>documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use.
>>>
>>>Best regards,
>>>Eric
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:jerome.jacobsen@gentootech.com]
>>>>Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47
>>>>To: Tag Libraries Users List
>>>>Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs
>>>>only if the
>>>>project has some very strict guidelines and very good
>>>>documentation on those
>>>>guidelines and your custom tags.  You would have to design
>>>>the guidelines to
>>>>be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP.  These
>>>>restrictions
>>>>should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to
>>>>have a complete
>>>>understanding of how JSPs work.  Setting up all of this I
>>>>think would be a
>>>>lot of work.
>>>>
>>>>Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>(http://www.enhydra.org/).
>>>In this framework the page writers write HTML.  Java programmers
>>>write code
>>>to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:net.reality@verizon.net]
>>>>Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
>>>>To: Tag Libraries Users List
>>>>Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Greetings,
>>>>                As a software developer I would like to delegate some of
>>>>the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers,
>>>>programmers etc.  The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl
>>>>was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non
>>>>java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like
>>>>jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of
>>>>wyswig web designers and other non java programmers.  What is the point
>>>>of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the
>>>>developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags
>>>>to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers.
>>>>All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience
>>>>delgating developing using taglibs.
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
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>>
>>    
>>



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