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From Peter Lin <>
Subject Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Date Wed, 05 Feb 2003 17:29:36 GMT

Here is an example off the top of my head. It will be
grossly over generalized, but it is still useful. 
Asssuming you have three individuals with specialized

1. page designer - ie the graphics guy who makes
things look great

2. html coder - knows every nook and cranny of
browsers, what renders, what breaks and how to get
around it. doesn't care to know Java or other OOP

3. developer

In past jobs, good designers will know some HTML. The
best page designers know HTML pretty well. Pure
graphic designer tend to do a terrible job and their
designs don't translate well. The likelihood of
finding an awesome designer that doesn't know a lick
of html, but can create great webpages is unlikely.

The html coders I've worked with like tag syntax and
are fine with javascript, so jstl is fine for them.
Some of the best HTML coders are decent graphic

Unfortunately not all companies can afford to have
these specialized individuals, so if you're in that
situation, buy the person a book and spend a couple
hours a week during lunch to cross train. JSTL and
tags in general are designed to solve a human problem,
but it's half the picture.

You still have to work hard to make development work
smoothly. Shawn Bayern's book JSTL in action is a good
book, so new designers should consider getting the
book. When ever I have to work with people who don't
know HTML or javascripting, I create a blank template
with just the title and a marker for where logic goes.
Like "<!-- list results here, don't touch-->" and walk
through it with the designer. That allows the page
designer to work around that, which allows you to keep
working and plugin your piece later on. Some markup
logic can be encapsulated in a very specific tag,
which a page designer can use without worrying about
correct usage.

if all else fails, dreamweaver does provide support
for jsp tags


--- Vinay <> wrote:
> This is a very interesting discussion , at this
> point I would like to join
> this discussion and express my concerns and
> opinions.
> I am basically a Java  programmer, using struts for
> our software
> development. Even though I am right now doing both
> design work using JSTL-EL
> and development I can't really make the web pages
> beautiful. I don't use any
> IDE or any tools though for any of the stuff.
> So we may have a designer soon and the concern is
> that most designers I
> think will not have knowledge of JSTL .I don't know
> how difficult it is to
> make the designer knowledgeable about JSTL tags
> ,Java Objects or Java beans
> and  even if we may allow the designer to do the web
> page design using some
> tool like dreamweaver , still there be lot of 
> burden upon  the programmer
> to embed the JSTL-EL tags into the JSP pages. It
> also requires the developer
> to use a tool such as Dreamweaver to edit the web
> designer's code,which may
> cause some discrepancies in the design(this might
> not be true,just my
> guess). But I still think that JSTL-EL is the way to
> go as it really helps
> define a view logic (user interface)without any
> scriplets.
> Vinay

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