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From Dave Newton <>
Subject Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Date Tue, 04 Feb 2003 22:39:12 GMT
On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:51, Pierre Delisle wrote:
> How much of a stretch is it to get Philippe (assuming typical knowledge of 
> JavaScript a designer would have) to use JSTL so he can have full control
> over the pages of the website?
> Or is it simply easier to just forget about training Philippe, and
> have Mike integrate the dynamic portions with the static designs
> of Philippe, and go back and forth between the two.
> Is it a tool issue?

I've found it's far more of a stretch than I would have thought. JSTL
might be more tool-friendly than a scriptlet, but it still requires a
basic understanding of what's going on in java-land (although we don't
have to CALL it java-land).

We've been using scriptlets until recently and I'm pushing to get JSTL
more for formatting reasons than anything else... The page designer that
I work with has a very tenuous grasp on scriptlets/beans/etc. and I'm
not seeing any great improvement with JSTL--it seems like syntactic
sugar, really.

Now, if a page design tool could understand the objects behind a JSTL
tag and throw up a list of potentially interesting things (what booleans
are available from this object (i.e., what presentation decisions can I
make)? what textual or numerical information is available?) and build up
the JSTL stuff automagically that could be interesting.

For myself, it's tough to convince me I shouldn't just type 

<% if (beanVar.isLocalUser()) { %>
  <blah blah>
<% } %>

even though I know I'm evil and wrong for doing so (bearing in mind that
I'm a programmer first, designer second). If I could wrap it in a
"decision block," get a list of objects and values available, or
whatever, I might be more likely to use JSTL.

I think your thought that this may end up being a tool rather than
technology issue may be on target, at least from my point of view. It
has been easier (for us, anyway) for me to integrate dynamic stuff into
a pre-designed page rather than get the design monkeys to learn enough
about java _OR_ JSTL that they don't have to pester me to display a
user's name or make a presentation decision based on their geographical
location etc.


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