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From "Frank W. Zammetti" <fzli...@omnytex.com>
Subject Re: Tomcat & JDK for PDA arm processor
Date Fri, 14 Apr 2006 04:06:29 GMT
Nearly every PDA with that much RAM doesn't actually have that much 
RAM... the problem is, WinCE itself uses up a lot of it.  For instance, 
I sit here with my Dell Axim x51v with 64Mb, yet I have 29Mb available, 
and I have nothing installed at the moment, just had to do a hard 
restart last night.  That's why most of the JREs out there are trimmed 
down.  There may be some exception to that, but I am not aware of it.

Your right, there are some with 128Mb these days, and it's possible to 
hardware-hack them up to 256Mb I believe, but you can't count on having 
all of it available.  A big chunk of it is going to be taken up.

Also note that at least with the Windows Mobile 5 devices, there is a 
difference between RAM and Flash ROM.  PPC's used to have one big chunk 
of memory that would be dynamically allocated between "program memory" 
(RAM for all practical purposes) and "storage memory".  Now though, 
there really is two physically different things.  For instance, My Axim 
has 256Mb Flash ROM, probably about 210Mb or so of it starts out free. 
You can think of this as a hard drive for the most part, it's yours to 
store stuff in (and the OS to a limited degree I believe).  There tends 
to be enough storage space on modern PPCs to do Java and Tomcat and your 
app, its the RAM where I think you'll run into a problem with.

I don't know off hand how much memory Tomcat itself needs, but I'd be 
willing to bet 29Mb would be kind of tight, and that's not counting the 
JRE or your app.

I definitely think you may want to consider not doing a webapp here, 
unless the PDAs will always have net connectivity, then you could just 
write a true webapp tailored somewhat to a PDA.

The good news is that PPC programming these days isn't too big a deal... 
C# is enough like Java that you can probably get by with it.  If you do 
.Net, it won't be too much different than programming for Java.

That of course means your app won't be cross-platform, no Zaurus for 
example.  Dunno if you can get away with that or not.

Frank

Tom Miller wrote:
>>>> I don't know what's your use case,
>>>
>>> I need a servlet engine.
>> Well, what do you intend to do with it ? Keep in mind it's 
> going to
>> use most of the device memory, and will be relatively slow.
> 
> 
> 
> I plan to write a small app to process a delivery process.  
> The app will process the delivery logic, capture digital 
> signature..etc.
> 
> 
> The reason I want the servlet engine due to the fact that 
> I have been using a combination of tomcat, apache, mysql, jsp 
> and java on X86 flatform. Perhaps, there is a better way of 
> doing it I just don't know any better.
> You have experience on this.  What is your recommendation?
> 
> 
> Some of later PDA have 128MRAM, will it be big enough to run 
> java?
> 
> 
>> Costin
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> but keep in mind tomcat ( and java
>>>> in general ) has a large memory footprint. If all you need
>>> is an HTTP
>>>> server - it is better to use only the coyote connector (
>>> with some
>>>> custom code ). Or even write your own tiny-http - you 
> really
>>> don't
>>>> need support for large concurrency or all the fancy 
> features.
>>>> You may get better performances with CVM, which has much
>>> smaller
>>>> footprint - but it may not work well with current tomcat.
>>>>
>>>> Java on PDA is very tricky,  make sure you have plenty of
>>> memory (
>>>> i.e. 64M :-).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Costin
>>>>
>>>> On 4/13/06, Tom Miller <tom@hostwebase.com> wrote:
>>>>> Costin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have a built version of tomcat and other 
> necessary
>>>>> requirements information to run on a PDA?  What PDA was 
> it?
>>>>> Please share the information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks inadvance,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I tested it with jamvm+classpath on NSLU2, should run 
> fine
>>>>> on zaurus as well.
>>>>>> Startup time is a bit slow, and memory use is a bit 
> high -
>>>>> but it
>>>>>> works reasonably
>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would suggest the sandbox version for this :-).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The main problem on PDAs is the flash access speed, 
> which
>>> is
>>>>> much
>>>>>> smaller than HDD,
>>>>>> so size of the jar and number of classes loaded 
> matters a
>>>>> lot.
>>>>>> Costin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/13/06, Tom Miller <tom@hostwebase.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do we have a binary version of Tomcat build for PDA
>>> (ipaq
>>>>> or
>>>>>>> sharp zaurus) arm processor?  If not can some one 
> help?
>>>>>>> Does anyone know where I can get a JDK for PDA?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>>> Date: 13 Apr 2006 19:05:04 -0000
>>>>>>>> From: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: WELCOME to dev@tomcat.apache.org
>>>>>>>> To: tom@hostwebase.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>>>>>>> dev@tomcat.apache.org mailing list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>>>>>>> at dev-owner@tomcat.apache.org.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Acknowledgment: I have added the address
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   tom@hostwebase.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to the dev mailing list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Welcome to dev@tomcat.apache.org!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please save this message so that you know the 
> address
>>> you
>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> subscribed under, in case you later want to
>>> unsubscribe or
>>>>>>> change your
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- Administrative commands for the dev list ---
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can handle administrative requests automatically.
>>> Please
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>>>>>>>> your message to the correct command address:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list, send a message to:
>>>>>>>>   <dev-subscribe@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To remove your address from the list, send a message
>>> to:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Send mail to the following for info and FAQ for this
>>> list:
>>>>>>>>   <dev-info@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>   <dev-faq@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Similar addresses exist for the digest list:
>>>>>>>>   <dev-digest-subscribe@tomcat.apache.org>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To get messages 123 through 145 (a maximum of 100 
> per
>>>>>>> request), mail:
>>>>>>>>   <dev-get.123_145@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To get an index with subject and author for messages
>>> 123-
>>>>>>> 456 , mail:
>>>>>>>>   <dev-index.123_456@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They are always returned as sets of 100, max 2000 
> per
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>>>>>>>> so you'll actually get 100-499.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To receive all messages with the same subject as
>>> message
>>>>>>> 12345,
>>>>>>>> send an empty message to:
>>>>>>>>   <dev-thread.12345@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The messages do not really need to be empty, but I 
> will
>>>>>>> ignore
>>>>>>>> their content. Only the ADDRESS you send to is
>>> important.
>>>>>>>> You can start a subscription for an alternate 
> address,
>>>>>>>> for example "john@host.domain", just add a hyphen 
> and
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In both cases, I'll send a confirmation message to 
> that
>>>>>>> address. When
>>>>>>>> you receive it, simply reply to it to complete your
>>>>>>> subscription.
>>>>>>>> If despite following these instructions, you do not 
> get
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> desired results, please contact my owner at
>>>>>>>> dev-owner@tomcat.apache.org. Please be patient, my
>>> owner
>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>> lot slower than I am ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Return-Path: <tom@hostwebase.com>
>>>>>>>> Received: (qmail 61892 invoked by uid 99); 13 Apr 
> 2006
>>>>>>> 19:05:04 -0000
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>>>>>>> (140.211.166.49)
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>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:04:42 -0400
>>>>>>>> From: Tom Miller <tom@hostwebase.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: confirm subscribe to 
> dev@tomcat.apache.org
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>>>>>>> Date: 13 Apr 2006 18:31:14 -0000
>>>>>>>>> From: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: confirm subscribe to dev@tomcat.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> To: tom@hostwebase.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>>>>>>>> dev@tomcat.apache.org mailing list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>>>>>>>> at dev-owner@tomcat.apache.org.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To confirm that you would like
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   tom@hostwebase.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> added to the dev mailing list, please send
>>>>>>>>> an empty reply to this address:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   dev-sc.1144953074.mlcdamofobhehlnnompg-
>>>>>>>> tom=hostwebase.com@tomcat.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply"
>>>>> button.
>>>>>>>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and
>>> paste
>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> or click here:
>>>>>>>>>      mailto:dev-
> sc.1144953074.mlcdamofobhehlnnompg-
>>>>>>>> tom=hostwebase.com@tomcat.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> This confirmation serves two purposes. First, it
>>> verifies
>>>>>>>> that I am able
>>>>>>>>> to get mail through to you. Second, it protects 
> you in
>>>>> case
>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>> forges a subscription request in your name.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some mail programs are broken and cannot handle 
> long
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> message
>>> to
>>>>>>>>> <dev-request@tomcat.apache.org> and put the
>>>>>>>>> entire address listed above into the "Subject:" 
> line.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- Administrative commands for the dev list ---
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can handle administrative requests automatically.
>>>>> Please
>>>>>>>>> do not send them to the list address! Instead, send
>>>>>>>>> your message to the correct command address:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To subscribe to the list, send a message to:
>>>>>>>>>   <dev-subscribe@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To remove your address from the list, send a 
> message
>>> to:
>>>>>>>>>   <dev-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Send mail to the following for info and FAQ for 
> this
>>>>> list:
>>>>>>>>>   <dev-info@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>   <dev-faq@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Similar addresses exist for the digest list:
>>>>>>>>>   <dev-digest-subscribe@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>   <dev-digest-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To get messages 123 through 145 (a maximum of 100 
> per
>>>>>>>> request), mail:
>>>>>>>>>   <dev-get.123_145@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To get an index with subject and author for 
> messages
>>> 123-
>>>>>>>> 456 , mail:
>>>>>>>>>   <dev-index.123_456@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They are always returned as sets of 100, max 2000 
> per
>>>>>>>> request,
>>>>>>>>> so you'll actually get 100-499.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To receive all messages with the same subject as
>>> message
>>>>>>>> 12345,
>>>>>>>>> send an empty message to:
>>>>>>>>>   <dev-thread.12345@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The messages do not really need to be empty, but I
>>> will
>>>>>>>> ignore
>>>>>>>>> their content. Only the ADDRESS you send to is
>>> important.
>>>>>>>>> You can start a subscription for an alternate 
> address,
>>>>>>>>> for example "john@host.domain", just add a hyphen 
> and
>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> address (with '=' instead of '@') after the command
>>> word:
>>>>>>>>> <dev-subscribe-john=host.domain@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To stop subscription for this address, mail:
>>>>>>>>> <dev-unsubscribe-
> john=host.domain@tomcat.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> In both cases, I'll send a confirmation message to
>>> that
>>>>>>>> address. When
>>>>>>>>> you receive it, simply reply to it to complete your
>>>>>>>> subscription.
>>>>>>>>> If despite following these instructions, you do not
>>> get
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> desired results, please contact my owner at
>>>>>>>>> dev-owner@tomcat.apache.org. Please be patient, my
>>> owner
>>>>> is
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> lot slower than I am ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Return-Path: <tom@hostwebase.com>
>>>>>>>>> Received: (qmail 72183 invoked by uid 99); 13 Apr 
> 2006
>>>>>>>> 18:31:14 -0000
>>>>>>>>> Received: from asf.osuosl.org (HELO asf.osuosl.org)
>>>>>>>> (140.211.166.49)
>>>>>>>>>    by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Thu, 
> 13
>>> Apr
>>>>>>>> 2006 11:31:14 -0700
>>>>>>>>> X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0
>>>>>>>>>      tests=UNPARSEABLE_RELAY
>>>>>>>>> X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org
>>>>>>>>> Received-SPF: pass (asf.osuosl.org: local policy)
>>>>>>>>> Received: from [192.217.230.200] (HELO mail.e-
>>>>>>>> integration.net) (192.217.230.200)
>>>>>>>>>    by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Thu, 
> 13
>>> Apr
>>>>>>>> 2006 11:31:13 -0700
>>>>>>>>> Received: from mail.e-integration.net (localhost.e-
>>>>>>>> integration.net [127.0.0.1])
>>>>>>>>>      by mail.e-integration.net (MOS 3.4.4-GR)
>>>>>>>>>      with ESMTP id CTM74378;
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>>>>>>>>>      by mail.e-integration.net (MOS 3.4.4-GR)
>>>>>>>>>      with HTTPS/1.1;
>>>>>>>>>      Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:30:52 -0400
>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:30:52 -0400
>>>>>>>>> From: Tom Miller <tom@hostwebase.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: subscribe
>>>>>>>>> To: dev-subscribe@tomcat.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: tom@hostwebase.com
>>>>>>>>> X-Mailer: Webmail Mirapoint Direct 3.4.4-GR
>>>>>>>>> MIME-Version: 1.0
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>>>>>>>> integration.net>
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>>>>>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------
> ---
>>> ---
>>>>> ----------
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>>> help@tomcat.apache.org
>>>>>>>
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!

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