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From Arun Katkere <katk...@praja.com>
Subject RE: Sources in Binary Distributions
Date Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:10:54 GMT
I stand corrected.

Is it possible, then, to archive all the releases of Tomcat on
jakarta.apache.org? I noticed that there is
http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat/archives/ (is there a site
link to this somewhere?). But, not all releases can be found there (3.2.2,
for instance).

-arun

ps: One can always check out of CVS based on a release label, of course.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Cain [mailto:ccain@mhsoftware.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 12:47 PM
> To: tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Sources in Binary Distributions
> 
> 
> Rob doesn't need me to defend him ... but I will anyway =)
> 
> Arun Katkere wrote:
> > 
> > OK, Rob, you are the voice of the majority (I probably 
> missed a vote on this
> > topic where people told you so)
> 
> Craig initially proposed it early last week, and I was the 
> first one to
> step up with vocal support for it (and I am still the loudest 
> proponent
> :-)
> 
> > and we are a few lazy developers wanting to
> > avoid an extra download. Take the source out.
> 
> I'm not sure what Rob's reaction to this is, but I'll say it ...
> essentially, yes. I would have phrased it in a slightly more 
> polite way,
> but that's essentially the argument. The argument of leaving 
> it in as a
> marketing ploy for attracting new developers is probably the strongest
> argument I've heard to date (although in my own very humble 
> opinion, the
> overhead outweighs the slight potentional benefit).
> 
> The argument that the occasional hackers don't want to be 
> bothered with
> a separate download just makes no sense to me. If you plan on 
> doing any
> hacking whatsoever, just get the source. Hell, alot of people 
> who don't
> plan on EVER hacking it get the source, if for no other reason just so
> that they can build it on their own machine. In my opinion, the people
> who download the binaries are not the slightest bit interested in the
> code, or even in building it themselves. They want to download it,
> unpack it, and move on with their day. Anyone who wants to do anything
> other than to get it up and running in 15 minutes grabs the source.
> 
> > -arun
> > 
> > ps: For what it is worth, my argument was not "leave src in 
> there so that
> > when I want to look at the source, i don't have to download 
> a src dist" as
> > you put it, it was that having the Java source available to 
> a debugger is a
> > legetimate reason to include source in a "binary" 
> distribution (you can
> > leave it jar'd if you like, as Sun does with Java2 SDK).
> 
> Again, anyone savvy enough to set up Tomcat in a debugging tool space
> (last time I tried it, it was ... less than intuitive) is probably
> working off the source dist. People willing to invest that 
> much time and
> effort in tracking down a problem themselves are not the same 
> people who
> grab binaries. With all due respect to end users, they simply 
> e-mail us
> and say "it's broken" :-)
> 
> > Let me go back to lurking and leave the business of posting 
> to those of you who can post the
> > same argument 10 times without reading what the other 
> person is saying.
> 
> That's simply a ludicrous statement. If you think Rob is not 
> one of the
> more ... eh, polite ... posters, then you clearly have not been
> subscribed to any dev lists for very long. If simply failing 
> to address
> every single one of your points directly qualifies as a 
> slight, then God
> help you when someone like Jon gets ahold of you ;-)
> 
> Rob is definitely one of the more personable characters who hangs out
> here, and I usually see him go out of his way to play well 
> with others.
> I say this not as an insult in any way, but you should really 
> lighten up
> a bit if you plan on involving yourself in dev-list discussions. It's
> not as if your points are patently ludicrous, and in fact 
> your debugger
> argument was actually quite interesting, even if I don't 
> personally see
> it as good enough reason to leave source in a binary distro. You're
> actively involved in this discussion, yet you didn't feel the need to
> address my "everything in it's rightful place" argument, so does that
> mean that you are ignoring what *I* am saying? Certainly not, so don't
> take it so personally. We're all bootylicious here, my man 
> ... ease up a
> bit :-)
> 
> - Christopher
> 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Rob S. [mailto:rslifka@home.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 9:39 AM
> > > To: tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> > > Subject: RE: Sources in Binary Distributions
> > >
> > >
> > > So what we have here is a minority of developers who look
> > > through the Tomcat
> > > source, versus the majority of people who have no interest in
> > > the /src dir.
> > > The argument is "leave src in there so that when I want 
> to look at the
> > > source, i don't have to download a src dist".
> > >
> > > For some reason, the "keep it in there" argument almost makes
> > > it sounds like
> > > the src is unavailable unless it's in the bin build.
> > > Personally, for all of
> > > the people that could care less about the source, I don't
> > > think it's asking
> > > much for people who want to look at the source to go and 
> get it...?
> > >
> > > - r
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Loïc Lefèvre [mailto:llefevre@fivia.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 12:10 PM
> > > > To: tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > Subject: RE: Sources in Binary Distributions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Absolutely agree with you!
> > > >
> > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > De : Arun Katkere [mailto:katkere@praja.com]
> > > > Envoyé : jeudi 2 août 2001 17:28
> > > > À : 'tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org'
> > > > Objet : RE: Sources in Binary Distributions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't generally throw in my $0.02 into a well worn thread
> > > and add to the
> > > > noise , but there is another issue which I didn't see
> > > anyone bring up.
> > > >
> > > > Having source around helps you with debugging. And if that
> > > > results in better
> > > > bug reports, i.e., instead of "it doesn't work and here is the
> > > > stack trace",
> > > > you get "it doesn't work because you didn't check for 
> null around
> > > > this line
> > > > of this file", it is probably worth it.   Keep in mind that
> > > many of Tomcat
> > > > users are competent Java developers. And we are not 
> talking about
> > > > the entire
> > > > build system here. Just the basic .java files. Not even
> > > native components
> > > > (which don't aid in this purpose). Sun's Java2 SDK includes the
> > > > source (just
> > > > the .java files) for I suspect the same reason.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I download the source distribution only 
> when there is
> > > > a critical
> > > > issue in Tomcat that we need resolved now, and patch and
> > > build with that
> > > > fix. Source in the binary on the other hand is useful for many
> > > > reasons even
> > > > if you discount the "first step towards getting people involved"
> > > > argument. A
> > > > quick check of some aspect of servlet/JSP spec(without going
> > > > through 100s of
> > > > pages of PDF). Help quickly identify whether the issue is
> > > with Tomcat or
> > > > your code. All on machines where you typically don't 
> have the full
> > > > development environment set up (when we are talking about
> > > JSP and not
> > > > servlets).
> > > >
> > > > Of course, one can always download the "source 
> distribution". So,
> > > > if you are
> > > > set on saving folks a few seconds (or minutes) of download time
> > > > at a slight
> > > > cost for those of us who do find it invaluable, that's fine.
> > > >
> > > > -arun
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Rob S. [mailto:rslifka@home.com]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 4:19 AM
> > > > > To: tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: RE: Sources in Binary Distributions
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'd like to second that.  I am currently not involved
> > > in any active
> > > > > > development, but looking at sources contained in a
> > > binary dist is
> > > > > > certainly the first step towards getting involved (its on
> > > > > my list (o:  )
> > > > >
> > > > > So you *expect* the /src dir in a binary dist?  That's
> > > > > mind-blowing to me.
> > > > > If you're interested in TC development, your first thought
> > > > > isn't "Time to go
> > > > > d/l the src distro" it's "Time to d/l the bin dist so I can
> > > > > check out the
> > > > > src" ?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not making a huge stand here, I thought bringing up the
> > > > > suggestion was
> > > > > almost common sense.  It's a "bin" dist, i.e. !(src
> > > > > included).  I wouldn't
> > > > > expect it to be there <shrug>
> > > > >
> > > > > - r
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> 

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