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From Jon Stevens <>
Subject Re: Future
Date Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:11:32 GMT
on 12/21/2000 1:44 PM, "" <> wrote:

>>> Speaking of future, the same thing can happen when the next servlet spec
>>> is released - and again you could use tomcat3.3 to have a smooth future.
>>> I know how painfull it is to upgrade a production server - how many small
>>> things will stop working and many things will be different.
>> And I'm 100% sure you will be able to use 4.0 as a base for future Servlet
>> API's as well. What is your point here?
> Upgrading from 2.0 to 2.2 isn't so easy. As of "using 4.0 as a base" -
> it's a difference between that and just plugging in a module ( and having
> even multiple versions of the API in use at the same time - as you upgrade
> and test your applications with the new APIs). That's part of the design.
> ( plus the preference that some people seem to have with throwing away
> and rewriting in a "better" way - the history tends to repeat itself )

This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with 2.0-2.2. It has to do with
the future (see the subject of this email).

The fact of the matter is that the ServletAPI has gone through a good
portions of the changes that it has needed to go through. When 3.0 of the
Servlet API comes out, I'm sure that large portions of code will need to be
re-written (that is the evolution of things) and I'm confident that Sun will
have engineers be around to do that.

>> You can't promise that for Tomcat 3.3. If you go away, there is absolutely
>> no promise that someone else will pick up and implement whatever the latest
>> spec is on top of Tomcat 3.x.
> Do you believe in open source ?

The fact that you are even questioning my belief in OSS, even in a sarcastic
manner, is pretty fucked up Costin.

Especially given that I quit a very successful 120 person company that I
co-founded to go work for an OSS company founded by the founder of the ASF
and you happen to work for a notoriously closed source company. Hello? Where
is the source code to Java, Mr. Sun Employee?

In OSS you can't *count* on anything. We are all volunteers and come and go
as easily as the flames around here.

> It seems to me thare are quite a few people not paid to work on 3.3 ( I
> would say the reverse is true - actually paying a price for working on
> it), yet it seems to move on.

As far as I'm concerned, that is only because you are the primary instigator
on things right now. If you go away, no offense to the rest of the people
with commit access, but I'm pretty certain that 3.x will die off pretty
quickly and the fact of the matter is that the code base is so badly
documented that it is hard for new people to get up to speed on it and that
in itself would prevent others from even wanting to start to work on it (it
did so with me, that is for sure).

>> However, you CAN promise that someone will do it on Tomcat 4.x because that
>> is the direction that Sun is going and Sun will pay someone to do it as long
>> as J2EE is around (which I don't see it going away any time soon, if
>> anything, it is getting larger and more important with the .NET crap).
> I think Sun does the right thing letting the open source work, and I hope
> it'll continue to do so.
> If you remember, the comunity is more important than the product - and
> that used to be the power behind open source, not the pay you get.
> I do believe tomcat4.0 has a future too - but that's because of the
> individuals behind it, and will have a future as long as those individuals
> will be there or other will take their places.

Same with 3.x. DO NOT FORGET THAT!

However, 4.0 has a *promised future* from Sun because of their continued
involvement in J2EE. You still are not seeing the point that 3.x has no
promised future with large scale backing. Just like JServ doesn't and we
have moved on.

>>> as much as possible from 4.0 - so whatever will happen in the future in
>>> 4.0 can happen in 3.3 too )
>> Very true, but not under the ASF because you will be forked elsewhere as you
>> have already stated.
> Even if ASF is "forking me", the code will continue to exist and probably
> will keep working.


I didn't say the "ASF is forking you (me)". I said that "you will be forked

You are the one who has decided that you will fork the project elsewhere. I
didn't decide that for you. In fact, I can't make any decisions for you or
anyone for that matter. That is up to you.

> The only problem is that I don't like forks. The only reason I have for
> forking is that the people there at ASF ( you, Pier, Craig ) are asking
> and forcing me to do so.

No, that isn't true at all. You are the one who said you were going to fork
and there is no "force" to do so.

As I said before: the path of the overall project is going in a direction
that you PERSONALLY don't happen to agree with. Because of that fact, it is
YOUR DECISION on what you can do in the future. For that matter, YOU are
DECIDING to fork in order to keep the path that you like while the rest of
us are continuing down the path that the project is going.

There is a big difference there between the direction the project is going
and forcing you to fork that you are not seeing at all.



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